Burnley Grammar School

Spot on John. I'm sure there were many who preferred it too. When we were indoors it was guaranteed we'd
sweat during lessons so bare chests were way more practical. We used to have to do bare chests outside regularly. I found exercising in the cold air or in the pouring rain definitely woke me up.

Dennis, cold showers were used as a punishment too. Our head gave the choice of then cane or shower, most chose showers. You had a day's notice and you wore your undies in the shower (we had to bring a spare pair of undies to change into) and was usually overseen by the teacher who'd sent you to the Head in the first place. I tried to remain as quiet as I could for as long as possible, some of my friends admitted they'd yelled out as soon as water hit them. Did you remain silent throughout and how? I remember gritting my teeth. Some teachers kept us in longer than they should've but that was the nature of the thing.

Surely barechested physical education is a completely harmless activity.

A few days ago someone asked on here what the actual issue really was about doing PE bare chested in school and there have been no direct answers to her yet on that one, but a couple of the comments since talk about not liking being told what to do, a common thing with many at school in all areas. I think this plays quite a big part in the whole bare chested PE thing where some boys rather hate that someone like the PE teacher can actually tell them they have to do something like fully remove their tops and compete in PE bare chested which for quite a few boys feels rather personal. Much the same principle would apply to school showers wouldn't it. There is no doubt a lot of us hated being told to do that.

Am I way off the mark or onto something with that?

Replying to Nathan Hind
I’m glad that you mentioned that there are many lads who prefer to exercise without the restrictions of any top. I was one of those lads who preferred to do PE stripped to the waist.
All too often this forum has seemed to be one sided with most comments relating to people posting who disliked shirtless PE. At my school the lads who disliked shirtless PE were in the minority, most lads preferred being bare chested.

We should be grateful a certain PS on TV wasn't in PE.

A previous forum writer mentioned being a natural rebel at school who didn't like being told what to do, even as an adult. You are not alone. I was at school a very long time ago now and was slightly rebellious from time to time by the benchmark of the late 50's & early 60's which covers my senior school education. That streak within me never quite left and it's not a bad thing as I see it within reason.

I remember being insolent to a teacher of mine, when insolence meant a lot less than it does today, simply answering back one time too many at a teacher, no more than that, and going to the headmasters office over it. I then found the headmaster summoning a PE teacher to take me to "cool off", and I was led out and followed him to the changing room where I was told to take everything I had on off for a cold shower punishment as I was kept a close eye upon. It was freezing. Teacher barked "get your head under the water and keep it there boy" as the natural inclination to move aside took over, but had to stand completely bolt upright still and not move a muscle for the five minutes the headmaster told him to keep me there. He had a stopwatch timing it too.

Most ironically I never received the traditional corporal punishment in school that was also a regular feature and hazard with a cane, belt, slipper or anything like that, just the one "cool down" for a bit too much answering back.

Back in 2007 we had friends in NZ who were making their plans to emigrate over here to the UK the following year and spoke with me many times before finally settling over here. We both had a couple of children of school age at the time. I distinctly remember a phone call when we were talking about the school they were arranging for the eldest son to join once they arrived here and they said they'd got all the details. One point that was picked up on and I got asked about was PE at my own children's school because they'd got details which stated the PE at the UK school they'd arranged would involved boys having a bare chest and our friends in NZ actually asked me if that was a big thing here in the UK and they were surprised by it. To be honest I had no idea myself and hadn't given it any thought and then realised how little I knew about my own two children at school doing PE, one was aged 15 at the time, the other was 12. Although neither had to turn up as a matter of course each time like that, in both cases I discovered they were frequently being asked to remove their PE tops and exercise in school PE shirtless. I wasn't bothered at all by that and neither of them mentioned it as a problem either, however our NZ friends did seem to find this something they were surprised about and the fact they mentioned it aloud must have meant they felt some sense of unhappiness about it. I think the school they talked to me about was one of those that used being shirtless for PE as an actual uniform on a permanent basis for all comers.

Thanks for your response,Nathan. That is reassuring.I would like to make the point that I was not making any personal critique of you. Sadly in our day some PE teachers thought they were a cross between an Army officer or a prison warder, especially at the sort of dump I attended. I always felt treating us all like that would be more likely to encourage criminality,since we were treated as guilty and not even the opportunity or thought of being innocent.

Josh talking a lot of sense.

I had one of those dismal kinds of PE teacher who liked making an example of someone and that example would be the removal of a top leaving a lone boy in the class shirtless to themselves. Happened to me for having a very faint old stain on a t-shirt of mine that I reused before a wash as mum had told me to do, so I wasn't allowed to wear it and had no other and went shirtless alone in PE that day. Now that is when you really feel exposed and vulnerable. That almost unseeable stain made no difference to anything. Now that's a PE teacher power trip Alan.

Women's footy, not a fan of it myself. Take a look at the 5-2 thrashing the women's adult world champions too from a bunch of 14 year old schoolboys. Hilarious.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4389760/USA-women-s-team-suffer-5-2-loss-FC-Dallas-U-15-boys.html


No way should girls be getting told to do football in school, I agree with you Melanie.

I think I'm quite approachable and pupils often have one-to-one contact about a variety of issues with me. What gets worn, or not in PE is rarely a discussion point. Anybody is free to say anything that troubles them at any point. Alone if they wish. The occasional bare chested PE has not cropped up with me ever. Showering has a couple of times with other colleagues, not with pupils but parents wanting reassurance.

Here is an example of one of the fitness test lessons today for year 10. We went outside and got those boys running as far as they could in 12 minutes around the school track. They were not running against each other but against the clock. Older people on here might remember doing a set course and then being timed how long they took to do that. This however makes the course distance variable for different abilities, but everyone has to run for 12 minutes, some slower than others obviously. The boys did this in trainers, shorts and vests. I've seen another teacher doing this with his class wholly in their bare chests before. That would be his decision. I made mine today.

It's worth remembering that many do like doing PE without the restriction of any top and are not concerned about how they appear whilst doing so.

Comment by: Mark on 25th May 2023 at 01:47


That was one of my problems, Mark. If we agree that most teenage boys would not, in our day or now , be up front about being uncomfortable, as Nathan said he has no wish to make anyone feel uncomfortable (and I believe him), unless he asked each boy their feeling, how would he know he was making some uncomfortable?. He said himself that all pupils at SOME time or another will do bare top lessons, so by the law of averages he will make SOME of them feel uncomfortable. My answer would be to make nobody do it - but as I have said so many times, those who wish to do so should be allowed to. Even as an adult I am a natural rebel and I don't like being told I "have to" do something,which is probably why I have been self-employed for some years now!. Like Robbie, I think it was, I would be interested in knowing what guidance teachers like Nathan would be given today.

The ex-primary that I went to over thirty years ago has now jumped on the girls football bandwagon and is making girls, including the daughters of friends of mine, play football in PE even though none of them has any interest in doing so. I know we shouldn't stereotype the genders but womens & girls football is still a very niche thing and should not be getting imposed on girls who show no interest in it in school.

Must agree with what Robbie and John have said, for boys who feel less confident about doing PE with a bare chest, there's a sense of safety in numbers. I was certainly someone who fell into that category in my early teens and felt nervous about shirts v skins in PE in a way I actually didn't about swimming - when, of course, all of us took our shirts off. When everyone was wearing the same kit it seemed less of a big deal than those situations in the gym where we'd be lined up waiting for the teacher to allocate each boy to a team. What was worse at my school was we actually did use coloured bibs but there were only two different colours! So for games like basketball or small-sided football there would be four teams instead of two and one of those four was skins. That meant if I was a skin there were only another five or six boys who had to take their shirts off and it felt like I stood out a lot more than would have been the case if we'd all done the lessons with a bare chest.

You are being very judgemental and are calling Nathan out for power tripping Alan, and said about if he said to do it you had to do it but actually if you read what he really said it was that he had no interest in making anyone feel uncomfortable, so in no way is he forcing anything on anyone by his own admission if they make it clear to him. He meant the shirtless PE by that didn't he. Now that is very different to when you and me were probably at school when the occasional PE teacher would come along and possibly enjoy making you feel very uncomfortable and certainly would have laughed in your face if you asked to be excused from a bare chested PE lesson on account of feeling awkward about it.

Replying to Robbie’s post of 24th May 2023.
I like you was never a fan of shirts vs skins and preferred lessons where we were all shirtless. Selecting who was going to be a skin seemed a waste of time. I was apprehensive when I had to do my first PE lesson bare chested but this was merely fear of the unknown as after a few lessons I got to prefer not having to wear a shirt.
Several years ago I’m sure that I read a post from someone who said that at their senior school boys had to wear reversible shorts for PE with a different colour on each side. This was sensible in my opinion as there was no need for shirts vs skins, before the start of a lesson involving team games and before lads had got changed into PE kit the PE teacher could tell half of the lads to wear the black side of their shorts and the other half the white side. I cannot recall any lads at my school being bothered about doing PE bare chested after they had done it for a couple of weeks and when we were all shirtless. There were a few lads that disliked being picked to be on the skins team when we did PE outdoors, they didn’t like being singled out.

Two questions. What are prospective PE teachers at teacher training colleges advised about bare chested PE ? Is it different from what trainee PE teachers were told back in the mid to late twentieth century?

John I wasn't for one minute making insinuations against Nathan - I think that was clear. What puzzles me is why he, or any other teachers, deems it necessary on even an occasional basis. You are making strawmen if you think I was impugning his character. The only claim I would lay against him is the power trip thing - "they have to do it, if I tell them to" attitude. Not a good look,but a very regular one in the mindset of the teacher, (and the career politician) sadly, even today it seems.

Andy: It is 2023, not 1953. The age of deference is long over, and Jack Hawkins character is outdated fr the modern school. The point I am making is that boys and girls mature much earlier these days than they did 40 years ago, even, and it robs them of their freedom to be individuals if they are dictated to in matters of dress, or lack of it. That is why so many teenagers are rebellious these days, or anyway a good part of the reason. Treat them as adult with minds of their own, because by 16 they are well on that road. I have worked with under 18s, and believe me they are quite able to decide matters for themselves - you get the best out of them by not dictating.

PE teacher tells the class to take off their shirts, so what?

You don't turn around and ask why.

You do it.

Why are you attempting to turn what Nathan said into something with less than wholesome and possibly sinister undertones Alan? It looks to me like an absolutely normal description of someone like him doing the job at any point in time. Even you have admitted he is no Hitleresque as you call it, that's praise coming from you.

The theoretical shy kid doesn't have to stand up in front of anybody in his class and face ridicule. There is something known as having a quiet word in private. I did this with teachers in other subjects at school or they called me aside, as they did with others I'm sure. You must know that is how it works in reality and always did.

Where I do agree with you is revolving around the wider issue of peer pressure. Having that private word is one thing but peer pressure at school age is very strong and can even override personal discomfort because who would want to be the one kid in class who stands out different to all the rest. It is easier to feel unhappy doing something but still go along with the crowd.

Clearing up my last comment if it confused anyone who pays close attention. I was never bothered by doing PE shirtless as anyone that has read my earlier comments will know, although it looks like I'd changed tune in the last posting but all I was doing was playing devil's advocate there.

Part of Nathan's post vonfuses me. He says in part "All pupils at some point will do some PE in a bare chest under instruction to do so and there are no open issues with it that I've yet become aware of."

I don't know Nathan,and clearly he is far from the Hitleresque teachers many of us had, but it begs the question - why?. He says in terms it his decision.I accept he might not be strict if a boy really felt uncomfortable, but how would he know, unless the boy actually said he was ?. In the context of a class group, which shy or introvert boy is going to risk ridicule by saying he is uncomfortable in front of his whole group?.

It seems to me, if he will allow me to say so, a whim to have some boys without tops, and he does so because he has the authority to do it. If the large majority of his lessons are done with tops, why are there exceptions?. Is it if it is just very hot, like it was in the summer of 2022?. I don't think this summer is likely to be a poll winner so will the no top rule be relaxed?.

Sadly, even today, some teachers seem to enjoy the power they have over pupils. Given the strange idea that there are now a hundred genders, what if a male pupil is "transitioning" (or a female one, come to that). I happen to profoundly disagree that you can be whatever sex you want to be, by doing an Eddie Izzard, and donning drag, but in 21st century Britain it seems to me there will have to be a rethink - especially in situations involving dressing and undressing. Also, as you now see boys of 15 with beards or stubble, is it right to treat them like children?. As some pupils are forced to stay at school till the age of 18, how can you treat a 17 year old as an infant?

A good informative post Nathan.

If I'm honest about it though, it does surprise me that schools are still doing the whole skins versus shirts thing in PE in this day and age. It was always quite a divisive thing at school I found. I say that as someone who had no problem taking part in PE with my upper body out on view shirtless. What I remember about doing this myself in school is that there were never many enthusiastic takers for being on the skins teams, I never openly volunteered it and I wasn't ultimately worried which side I was on. My school had a collection of hockey and netball bibs that were used a lot for both boys and girls outside. They could have just as easily been used inside when we did some of the team stuff there too like basketball, indoor football, softball etcetera. They kept ours in a cardboard box very close by our gym and quickly accessible along with other bits and pieces such as actual spare kit. I wonder Nathan if you also have bibs available. But inside teams always went down the skins versus shirts rule. I preferred it when the whole class just discarded our top and were the same rather than split into have's and have nots. The choosing in PE just who was going to be a skin and a shirt was sometimes an irritating and slow timewasting task, leaving someone unhappy about it.

What Nathan says here - 'I'd have no interest in making anybody do that who was uncomfortable doing so.'


This is the difference between a modern PE teacher and one who took us forty, fifty, sixty years ago in schools, probably even just twenty or thirty back too. PE kit was non negotiable and I'm sure others will agree on that. Just because I might be uncomfortable doing PE shirtless did not stop me doing PE with a bare chest. Asking not to would have been met with short shrift, and nobody would seriously expect a plea of awkwardness to be met with a backdown from the PE teacher, far from it. This in my school was most noticeable not with shirtless PE but with the naked shower requirements for everyone. There were pleas from boys to avoid those and not listened to and fell on deaf ears from PE teachers who were not concerned too much about who felt uncomfortable or awkward doing these things. So quite a big difference in attitude between then and now.

I was struck by the very clever subtle language on showering nowadays, no longer saying such things are compulsory like in my older school days but saying they are 'expected'. Quite clever word play that and I note that it still has the same effect as being old style compulsory.

So from what I understand Nathan, you do sometimes still tell boys in your PE at school that they are to remove their top and go barechested in PE, and it goes okay like that, but if someone did kick up a fuss about it you'd back down and not force the issue on them. It's sort of how I read what you say here.

I think what you've stated there Nathan is broadly what I would have anticipated you might have said. I don't think anybody should feel surprised by anything there.

Nathan - many thanks for your interesting comments

Thanks for the comprehensive answer Nathan.

Gary you said: "Would a PE teacher be frowned upon if he chose to take his class all shirtless regularly nowadays if the school generally didn't do that, or would he even be allowed to do it. Questions, questions!"



I can answer your question, and I'll answer the last part first.

The answer is a firm and definite yes, I am allowed to do that, nothing at all prevents me for example telling pupils to strip down for team shirts and skins games. They remain a popular feature in PE. There is nothing at all to stop me asking a class to do those things. It's my decision alone on a class by class basis. I lead PE classes frequently which within them have pupils in bare chests in various situations. There are no hard and fast rules in this unlike some of the schools older people went to long ago where things were set in stone and everyone knew what they had to do.

The old style PE many older ones here took long before I was born always seemed excessively regimented and very standardised. It does not surprise me that many hold their own PE in low regard but I think there is much more understanding of wider issues nowadays and more actual listening than there might once have been if you are now say 65 looking back to your own tougher time with it.

Many boys who think they are great at sport such as football nowadays in school have parents who see potential multi millions from a sporting career, something unheard of even for those who really did make it once upon a time.

But I do agree that if as teacher I became a stand out against the grain in a school like mine and was the only teacher who always took boys PE and never let them stick their PE kit tops on then it might well raise a comment but as I've never done so I can only presume that would be the case. I wouldn't wish to do that however. I'd see no real benefit in a blanket decision saying everybody had to come to my PE class in school in a bare chest. I'd have no interest in making anybody do that who was uncomfortable doing so.

But the upshot answer is I could do so if I wanted. I'd only have to answer to my immediate PE department boss if I wanted guidance or he had something I was doing drawn to his attention by a third party pupil/adult.

I think we have a good balance currently. All pupils at some point will do some PE in a bare chest under instruction to do so and there are no open issues with it that I've yet become aware of. Majority PE is in vests/t-shirts/sweatshirts.

I'd also remind you that our school does take showers after PE. They are not described as compulsory, but as expected. In practice everyone does unless told otherwise due to serious time constraints or lack of real need. That's uncommon though. Sometimes a late lesson can just be allowed to clear off.

Just incase anyone has also forgotten about a previous comment I made about taking swimming at our school, we had somebody wish to swim in an all over lyrca style modern full body suit but the decision was made that we would not allow that and traditional swimming gear should be worn only. That was very unusual though.

So yes, if I was so minded I could make all my PE classes go bare chested but I would very likely have to justify my decision, whereas just doing so now and again is the normal situation and not even worthy of comment from anyone, apart from on these historical pages that interest the readers here.

Comment by: Neil Warnock on 21st May 2023
I had to take showers at both my middle school and secondary school.



What rotten luck that was. A double dose. Middle school had no need to do that but if it worked out for you who am I to argue.