Burnley Grammar School

Somebody mentions 'looking back with fondness', and gets a blast about the past from Alan. That was a huge overreaction to such a genteel phrase.

May I suggest a very well known book by Dale Carnegie.

A completely irrelevant deflection Alan. I only remember corporal punishment in school, not capital. (Joke) Half past four in the morning doesn't seem the best time to think clearly.

I wonder if you misread the NICK post Alan. It was clearly being written from the alternate perspective of those who told those in school what to do and NOT his own particular view of how to be with people. It was a basic factual truth anyway wasn't it. I didn't see anything about the good old days either. Just expressing a fondness for your schooldays that you might not have felt at the time is a quite common thinking process and it doesn't in any way mean you approve of the wider world as it was so I'm not sure why there was a need to bring hanging into it. All very random Alan and I'm not sure why you felt the need to bite back so hard at a name I don't think I've seen on here before. Chill man.

Tim, what made you think the same poster comes from Dover?

Nick
Do we know each other? You don't live in the Dover area, do you?
T

Nick Lucas on 24th April 2023 at 22:40


The good old days, eh Mick?. The days when you could get hanged for a murder you didn't commit, but if you were REALLY lucky you would get a free pardon sixty years after the event. The Bentley case for example - just one of many. The good old days were not that good, unless viewed through rose tinted glasses.

I will take on board the suggestions surrounding the film I have although I was hoping to place it on a more specific history type of site, so if anyone has any further suggestions of anywhere suitable for an old digitally transferred cine of the kind I described please let me know. Thanks.

Nate, I was more concerned by seeing my father filming me I think, rather than worrying what some girls might be thinking about how I looked. The girls I knew at school were always very nice and well mannered.

Born back in 1947 I was at school in 1959 and of a similar age to those young ones seen in that photograph here from the same year, although I was brought up in Horsham.

The picture shows it much like it was. The teacher would always set himself apart from the boys and look different. While the boys would not be expected to turn up and do gym in much more than the shorts expected of them, and a top in the gym for the class would almost have seemed like an overindulgence if we had been allowed to wear one, there was no chance the teacher in charge of us would ever stoop to being in gym class with us without one on.

I do have some less favourable memories of the school horse however. The gym at school felt quite austere and dowdy, the rules somewhat draconian at times. Teacher, more than one actually, would use the horse as a means to chastise boys in gym on the spot. I personally associate the gym horse as much with PE as I do with corporal punishment. The horse at school was where boys in trouble would have to lean against to be given the slipper in gym or the cane. I was both slippered and caned up against the gym horse so it brings mixed feelings as an object to look at.

(I was caned by the headmaster for smoking and slippered in PE too many times to remember what for)

It may seem quite disgusting now but boys in those days of the late 1950s would often be given a physical reprimand only for failing to achieve for a demanding teacher and this was where I found myself. Our whole class was once up against the gym horse and slippered for inattention, the innocent taking the hit too. I remember that one.

The school shower of the time was never a very appealing prospect. Quite often it was so cold that we would actually shiver or the water would run cold surprisingly fast on us but we would have to stay in. To this day I do not know if this was done purposefully or happened naturally because of the school's system, so my main memory is of cold showers, very unwelcome when you come in from the cold.

I told this to my late father and he called it character building. Well I think I'm of good character so just maybe he was right.

Boys used to be treated far more grown up with less attention paid to their individual feelings I think. Football, don't like it? Tough, get on the pitch and start chasing the ball. Cross country, can't hack a long run, tough, get moving those legs now. Swimming, don't like the water? Tough, get in and get your head under. Goings skins with no top, worried about showing your body? Who cares, get that shirt off now. Showers, you hate them, don't want to be naked in front of everyone? Not interested, get your stuff off and get in them pronto, move it. PE for so many was like a kind of ten to twelve year physical conscription of sorts that forced you into something you'd never have done if left to your own devices. This is my experience in a brief paragraph. It was the same for everyone, I now look back with a certain fondness.

The girls saw us all barechested When we started to strip off outside the teachers made sure the girls had a really good view when we stripped off being just a few feet away from them. It was normal for all the lads were told to strip off for the lesson but occasionally we'd be split into teams of skins vs vests (school colour was pale blue) When we were indoors the teachers ran us into the ground and we all showed sweat usually by mid point and the girls passing by the sports hall just had to look through the outsized windows to see us exercising. It wasn't unusual for a posse to gather and watch if they were on their lunch. They did pay attention to how we looked. When we first starting stripping off It took a good couple of months for the jokes to die down but there were always the occasional comments about how we looked physically. It was all part of school and being honest I did welcome the attention, for me it was a nice change.

Comment by: Steve R on 23rd April 2023 at 00:25

Our school requires that all pupils who do PE must take a shower. Unless a teacher decides otherwise, showering is considered compulsory throughout all school years. Please make sure a towel is supplied as part of the PE kit at all times.

Exemptions only allowed on documented medical grounds supplied by parents for any PE activities and/or showering requirement. A written note is preferable but a telephone call will be accepted initially.




^ This sounds like my school.

But what I always wanted to know was what reason, medical or otherwise, could there be that would mean you were fit and able to take part in PE but were not able to take a shower afterwards. If you're fit to do PE you're fit to shower surely.

I once got my eldest adult sister, she was 22 and I was 13, to ring the school and pretend to be my mum to get me out of a winter cross country PE day and it worked like a dream and I was keen for her to do it again a few weeks later but she told me she wouldn't and I never tried again.

Mark, girls can be absolute rotters among boys when they get to that certain age.

I'll give you a clear example. But it's worth saying although I always shared PE lessons up until the end of primary school with girls my age we were always covered up much the same as each other to look at.

Going up into the seniors after primary we never ever shared any PE lessons with any girls at all but it was where we had our introduction to the so called benefits of shirtless physical work spending our PE lessons stripped off down to the waist every week in the school gym and a huge amount outdoors too.

No problems doing PE like that in the gym, just the boys in there, but outside the girls class could frequently be doing their stuff, netball, hockey or whatever very near the boys and catch plenty of us getting athletic. It was during one of these PE lessons that one of the girls PE teachers came over and asked one of our PE teachers if she could borrow a couple of boys to bring out some benches from the gym. Me and someone else got sent over and took the brunt of more than enough teenage girly comments lifting the benches stripped down shirtless under instruction of their PE teacher. I could have killed my own PE teacher for choosing me to do that and set me up into the lion's den of the girls PE class with comments flying thick and fast about mine and the other one's less than athletic appearance as they saw and mocked us. But that wasn't just it in that moment, there were weeks of comments afterwards too about it that refused to let up. All because I helped the girls PE teacher lift a couple of benches in my boys PE kit without my shirt on. It has been 39 years since and I still remember it and the comments like it was yesterday. Not the worst thing that can ever happen to anybody I know but a clear example for you Mark.

@ Harry: Maybe you could upload the film elsewhere and send us the link either in the field 'Your URL' or just in plain text in the message itself.
Would be great

Why do you think girls would tease boys at school just because they could see what their bodies looked like without the top on. Where you seen like that in school and teased Nate in a PE class or something similar?

I remember the funny scene in Gregory's Girl when the Gordon Sinclair character is in the changing room and the girl comes in on him without his shirt and he laughably puts his fingers over his nipples to hide them from her. No modest shy boy would ever really do that in front of a girl.

Harry, how did you feel about being shirtless around girls? Did they ever tease you or the other boys? Could you upload your footage to YouTube?

I've a digitised copy of an old cine film my father took of me at school in June 1973 doing a physical education routine on the school playground when I was ten years old. There is no sound to it however. In it all of the boys, including myself are barechested in various coloured shorts while some girls are in a pure white unbranded short sleeved polo shirt. It appears to be a cloudy day with a lack of sunlight, some people can be seen watching and are in coats. In it I am walking along a beam about three feet off the ground with my arms held out and also vaulting over other boys who are bent over. It seems to be quite a good snapshot of the kind of PE I did at that age. A pity the forum doesn't have the ability to share digital photographic and film files.

Chris K your mention of your kit requirement in PE made me think about any old school literature I have hanging around the place and I managed to find some myself.

I was at a very normal mixed comprehensive school from 1973 until 1980 aged 11 to 18, in Cambridgeshire before going off to university where I studied modern history, hence why a site like this crossed my interest.

I did PE up to fifth form at age 16 and stopped but could have chosen to do a weekly class in one of the free periods if I had wanted to but chose to do an art course instead at the time. It was PE or artwork, the choice wasn't hard for me to make.

I've got a quite an interesting pamphlet with listings for PE on new intake at age 11 and another for age 14. This is the age 11 one below in part.

Boys PE kit outside varied dependant on time of year.

BOYS PE

BOYS WINTER
Studded football boots.
Black knee length socks.
Black shorts.
Blue sweatshirt.
Blue t-shirt.

BOYS SUMMER.
White plimsolls.
White ankle length socks.
White shorts.
Blue vest.

BOYS GYM
White shorts only.
No shirts or footwear are worn in our gym.

The literature goes on to state;

All boys must do football, rugby and running and reach a minimum competent standard ability in each.

All boys must do athletics and reach a competent standard ability as determined by their PE teacher.


Our school requires that all pupils who do PE must take a shower. Unless a teacher decides otherwise, showering is considered compulsory throughout all school years. Please make sure a towel is supplied as part of the PE kit at all times.

Exemptions only allowed on documented medical grounds supplied by parents for any PE activities and/or showering requirement. A written note is preferable but a telephone call will be accepted initially.


There are a few other bits and pieces and also a couple of black and white photographs including one which looks similar in style to the black and white one that comes with this discussion which was taken in our own school gym, the photo is an all boys one but we did share gym with girls during the first two years at school.

Both boys and girls had to take showers at our school.

I think I just about managed to reach the required standard if my marks were anything to go by although no idea how it was worked out.

Although our summer athletics vest was on the kit listing it did become optional and some people chose to take it off to do PE outside and sometimes our PE teachers told us to take them off.

They really did make us shower every time.

Some people I remember at school could be quite vocal about what they did and didn't like doing in PE in actual lesson content we did. One or two when we got older became quite bold and brazen at simply not showing up for PE at all or deliberately not bringing their PE kit and giving out obviously fake excuses we could all hear. That worked best outside but was doomed to fail in gym when an easy pair of shorts could be found. Could it be the reason some schools kept gym kit to the absolute minimum I wonder, so a failure to turn up to school with your PE kit was easily overcome.

Unlike on here, I don't ever remember many outward expressions of insecurity about having to do PE with no shirts on or anything like that, or worries about sharing communal activities such as the naked shower. We all used to be quite an accepting bunch about our lot didn't we.

I have no complaints about the way school taught me and the rules they made. I learnt quite a lot of life lessons about myself just through doing PE.

"Communal showers are vile things" - quote from Freddy.

They are just the most cost effective and quickest way to clean up a large group of people at the same time. That's all.

Perhaps we are going to see reparations being paid out before much longer for all those schoolchildren who were made to shower in school and had their human rights infringed by teachers failing to respect their personal privacy.

What a BIG ROLL EYES post that is from Freddy here.



You might have chosen to remain muddy Freddy but good luck pulling that one where I was at school. Do boys even get that muddy in PE lessons these days like they used to on the playing fields of old.

I had PE lessons where an entire class would come in absolutely soaked to the skin, all our kit wet through literally to our underwear in the worst of it, pelting rain lashing down, the ground like a mushy bog underfoot, the ball struggling to even bounce on parts of it. The mud could be legendary, our boots, our socks, our legs, shorts and if you dived then our tops too and even faces splattered, even our hair. The mess that entire classes of boys could return from PE in off the school fields is something I would not envisage happening as much nowadays, the parents would probably be complaining about the state of the kit, never mind the state of their little darlings.

But we also had PE lessons where you'd be hard pressed to find a drop of perspiration on anybody. That tended to be tedious lessons in gym where we did a lot of standing around watching certain apparatus. Trampoline springs to mind as a big bore were we spent most of our time leaning on the side of the thing watching members of class going up and down before having our turn.

You mention sending teachers to jail for forcing people like us to shower. But be realistic, what choice would you have if you came off from one of those lessons I first described. How could you possibly just get dressed and carry on your schoolday like that. That would have been far more irresponsible don't you think if you couldn't get cleaned up and what a strange school it would have been that expected you do do some of the things I did, and others, in all weathers and conditions, getting wet, dirty and sweating and not advising that you need to be showered after all that.

By your thinking every one of my seven PE teachers would be doing a combined total of 70 years in jail for just doing their job.

Looks to be him John. Not seen that before, thanks for the link.

This must be your teacher on this database then Tristan.

https://uk-database.org/2014/02/27/kevin-copestake-northwold/

Hi Kev, yes I also had a PE teacher visit presentation at school in 1985 along with I think it was a languages teacher who came along to represent other staff. I can't remember too much about what was said back then but a few days later we took a return trip to his school where the same two people actually showed us around the place. I was quite keen to see the facilities we'd have to use and we got taken to have a stand in the middle of the school sports hall which seemed enormous and slightly intimidating compared to what we were used to. We got taken along to the changing rooms but stayed outside the door and didn't get a look in because at the time there seemed to be a class using them. Our guide knocked and another PE teacher came out to say hello knowing we were all waiting outside the door and as he did so we heard the sound of running water, someone said something like what's that sound and he said we couldn't go in because the boys were having a shower. Someone in our group said 'will we have to do that' and he said you'll need to by the time you've finished PE at this school. He went back inside and left us to our PE teacher guide who told us not to worry about things like that. We then went off to the gymnasium itself and sat around talking about what sports we all liked with him. It was just boys as the girls had gone off separate with the languages teacher for their guided tour, I'm not sure why we needed to be separate like that, we all saw mostly the same things. I remember getting home and being asked about the guided tour and about what I'd seen and more or less saying I'd seen nothing much. But a few things did stick in my mind from our little tour around, the size of the place, the art room facilities that were awesome, a gruff looking teacher we passed in a corridor who looked like he was scowling at us as we passed him and the changing room door hello we had from the other teacher which got me wondering what it would be like having showers in school and I wished I could have had a quick look in to see beforehand what it looked like doing so.

Chris K
You refer to the lack of detail in your PE kit list.
When I was changing from Primary to Secondary school, I had to attend a presentation with my parents and during the evening the uniform requirements were explained.
Then the P E teacher stood up and said that for that lesson we would wear shorts(no colour specified) no top indoors and plimsolls no socks. Then he added also no underpants will be worn. Then he went on to list requirement for the swimming lessons.
As you say in your comments much was omitted, and when it came to the lesson were you permitted to wear underwear or had the school decided to withhold that from the instructions previously issued?

I've never been FORCED to have showers after PE. At middle school I sometimes did if I had a lot of mud, but at upper school I never did because I preferred having mud on me than having to do that.

Communal showers are vile things, and any teacher who forces a child to have one should be jailed for ten years.

This admittedly contradicts my other belief that all PE teachers should be hanged upside down and flayed, but there you go.

Back in 1966 when I was at school aged eleven the PE block did not even have a proper changing room worth the name. There were no showers of any kind available to use. What we had instead was a row of large sink basins and had to use them when we came in from a class in gym or playing fields. This simply meant standing at the sink, shirt off using a flannel to wipe our top half and armpits. Our legs often neglected even though we wore shorts doing so.

Now doing this was a slow process and led to queueing up, even with sink sharing two to a basin. There were something like eight basins available. One morning an overconfident boy with dirty feet came back and while both teachers were not paying attention decided to climb up and actually stand with both his feet in one of the filled sink basins to do what he thought would make things easier, but in doing so he slipped in the wet falling hard onto the floor and broke both arms trying to soften his fall. It was getting caught and shouted at that made him jump, take fright and slip in the first place I think.

The sinks were big enough that if we had been allowed to (we weren't) then two normal sized twelve year olds could have sat in them legs crossed at a squeeze. One person easily.

That slipping incident more or less put paid to being allowed to use sink basins to wash and within two months the place had been gutted and some rudimentary communal showers were finally installed as a short term measure before the school got a proper upgrade a few years later to bring it up to modern requirements.

Our own personal hygiene was always something PE teachers took seriously at school and made us pay time and attention to even when we didn't think we needed to. I was only allowed one bath a week at home and until I was 8 I had to share with my sister sometimes and also until I was 13 with my brother, both a bit younger, so I welcomed the chance to use the school showers when they became available.

At home bath night for me was always on a Thursday for some reason and when my school switched the days we did PE one of them was on a Thursday but my bath night at home also remained on a Thursday too. My fathers bathing habits took precedence over his three children because of the job he did and he needed one many nights in the week.

I was always clean and well turned out both from home and school.

Going back to the start of the 1980's when I was a youngster just starting out I was at a grammar school in Tonbridge, called The Judd School where we had lots of lessons in PE where we never wore our vests, especially with one particular teacher who never let us do so in any of his lessons, everything we did on the inside and a hell of a lot on the outside too. I always felt strangely uncomfortable in his lessons in ways I didn't with other teachers. He was quite a young teacher, late 20's, early 30's at most. We always took showers same as anywhere else at the time would have done, nothing strange about that, but how many people had a PE teacher who would sometimes offer to dry your back with your towel for you, not many, but I saw that going on and just thought that was so weird even if your back is a bit hard to reach. There was always the easy technique for drying your back anyway. Once he'd got to know our class he actually shared showering with us one day and I couldn't get out quick enough, although apparently that was not exactly uncommon behaviour for the time either but it felt weird to me as a modest twelve or thirteen year old. I didn't really give this guy much thought until what must have been about ten years ago when his unusual surname (Mr Copestake) cropped up locally and I discovered there was a case being made against him surrounding his time at our school around about the time I was there and I think he got convicted of some offence and given about five years for something like befriending certain boys in PE and sharing a shower with them away from school at his home or something while they were still pupils at the school, along with inappropriate touching at school and away from school.

If you ever had a strong hunch about one of your PE teachers you were probably right. I was.

Chris K, I still have the note I was sent home with almost 50 years ago now that told my parents while I was still in primary school that they wanted me to start showering after PE following a school refit. I was just 10 at the time. I remember that nobody wanted to be the first one to drop their pants and show their willy until one of the others, a young boy I still remember called Toby did this and we all followed quite quickly. He was considered a very brave boy for doing that and being the first and we told him that.

I work a lot in mindfulness coaching and think it would be a good idea if all schools had such a person on the staff. It might have been quite useful many years ago with a number of issues. Body related issues are always one of the top worries and to think that possibly our most insecure and self conscious age in our lives is possibly 10 to 16 and that is when most of us were forced into confronting communal nudity amongst each other or semi naked shirtless PE without a great deal of thought going into how that might affect each of us as individuals.

I got used to having to do PE shirtless but I still didn't like doing so very much and could never quite get rid of feeling incredibly self aware while I was in PE like it when the teacher wanted our shirts off time after time, skins v shirts stuff or just the whole class sometimes for some reason or another. It made my heart sink most times we did.

It was the same in the school showers. We were not provided with any choice about that. We had to remove all our clothing completely under the supervision of whatever teacher took us that day and wait for him to turn the showers on for us and walk sensibly into them together. He'd watch at the only entry/exit point to them while we showered and decide when we could all come back out again. Just the same as with shirtless PE, yes I got used to showers in school and having to be naked among a lot of other people but I never liked it and there was always every time a feeling of some kind of acute self awareness about myself, perhaps I'd even go so far as to say it fostered intense feelings of inadequacy.

Other people had a 180 degree different view. That was mine.

Answer to Steve.

No, we tended to run cross country in a vest but there were times when two or three took them off as we ran along and nothing was said. They just tucked the top into the shorts hanging down around the waist in some fashion. After we had run nearly everyone was pulling vests off even before we got back through the door to the changing rooms. Unlike some people on here, nobody ever told our cross country running group in PE that we all had to run bare chested because they had decided we must do so. But then most cross country running took place only from September until the Easter break so we would go a full five months at least not doing it and it resumed with the new school year again. We were always timed by our teachers and had our times registered in a little black book one of them had. Most run times seemed to be in the region of about 40 minutes on average and we always had to wait around for the slow finishers. I tended to be one of the median runners.

Indoors was barefoot mostly.

We had a checklist of what was considered the compulsory elements of PE and meeting certain criteria on fitness and achievement was quite a big part of it but PE showering was also a compulsory element.

Compulsory elements were quite the buzz word at school and applied to other subjects and even our appearance such as haircuts which was quite strict.

Sean on 16th April – I fully understand, appreciate and respect your feelings that ‘one-handed boxing’ was not for you. Indeed, I can think of several boys in my class who would have hated it, but personally I would have loved it. I usually looked forward to PE – not that I was any good at most of the activities, but I always anticipated a bit of freedom to run around, use up excess energy, get rid of pent-up frustrations, etc, instead of being sat at a desk wearing a shirt and tie and blazer, even in the summer no matter how hot it was. The reality however was usually that a lot of the time was spent doing seemingly endless circuit training – ten push-ups, ten sit-ups, ten star jumps, repeat, repeat, repeat. For me, it was boring, boring, boring! Excruciatingly so! I would have found your one-handed boxing tremendously exciting – something to really get the heart pumping and the adrenalin flowing. I’d have been fully focused and putting in maximum effort – which almost never happened in PE!
I’m a little intrigued as to how it worked in practice though, Sean. How were the pairings decided and who had which glove – surely a right-handed boy with the right-handed glove would have a significant advantage? And what did boys do with their ungloved hand – try to defend by keeping it in front of their bodies, try to catch hold of or push away their opponent’s gloved hand, or push his ungloved hand out of the way to try to land a clean punch, or what? I’d have made it a rule that the ungloved hand must be held behind one’s back! I can see some purpose to it – such an activity would involve hand-eye coordination, reaction times, etc, and as I said before, for me (and no doubt for quite a few of my mates), provided something different, interesting and exciting for once.

Finally, whilst I’m here, like Carter, being forced to be bare-chested for PE, did wonders for my self-confidence. Until I moved to secondary school, I was quite self-conscious and would do anything to avoid being shirtless in front of others. Being forced to be so in PE felt uncomfortable for the first couple of lessons, after which I started to quite enjoy it. It made me realise, though I would not have been able to phrase it in such terms at that age, that we are all different and we are all normal. I’m convinced that most of the body image hang ups many boys suffer from today simply would not exist if we still had sensible, practical PE kit policies in schools instead of trying to wrap kids in cotton wool. Typing this, has made me wonder how different my life might be today, had I not been forced to overcome my almost obsessive shyness about being shirtless – would I never have been able to sunbathe on a beach? Never go swimming with my kids? Maybe even never have kids if I was too scared to be naked with a girl!

By the way, unlike Chris K, my school’s uniform list (I can still remember it!) said “Indoor PE: White Shorts, White Ankle Socks and Plimsolls or bare feet, no shirt required”. By which, of course, it actually meant “no shirt allowed”. There was no need to “read between the lines” – it was all quite open and straightforward. And normal. This was an all boys state grammar school in the mid to late sixties.

Thanks Carter for your contributions.

Did you do indoor PE barefoot as well, or did you wear trainers ?

What about cross country, was that stripped to the waist also ?

Thanks.