Burnley Grammar School

Alan, Andy and Mark that's what I think too, I think it's the solo shower isn't it. That's a beauty. Gotcha indeed.

You kind of have to laugh just a little at that admission don't you. The current serving PE teacher who is right now as we all write on here
sending all his current boys together into the school showers at his school with no privacy of their own, denying any problems exist and then turning around and saying he has his own private shower on hand for himself. I'm not saying he should jump in with his class like some old timers are alleged to have done in the long distant past but emphasising his own solo showering arrangement while demanding communal arrangements for others is so typically a school thing, and a politician too.

Nathan, in the interests of fairness would you share the showers at school with all the other adult males in PE who work with you if you had to?

There was an item in the press last week about the nation's changed washing habits due to the cost of living crunch. They say sales of soap bars are rising again having been in decline for years. Who knew that? I always use soap bars. It was said that 75% of people in the UK shower or bath every single day. I don't. I'd never have time to bath every day and shower maybe every three or four. I found the stat that three quarters of us do this every day rather high. I always feel clean. Maybe it's my throwback to the time growing up when you had a bath once a week whether you needed it or not. Actually I got naked and washed more in school than at home during my high school years of the late 60s to mid 70s. I had one bath a week at home, always on the same day each week. I was lucky I never had to share at home with siblings, we were allowed our own bath night to ourselves. I had a couple of showers each week in school and I'd be rubbing myself all over with the good old soap bar directly on my skin which was how they encouraged the after PE collective shower clean up.

So how many times a week do people on here shower nowadays out of interest? Not every day, surely it depends on what you've been doing and the temperature and humidity doesn't it.

The content here has never been better in my considered opinion.

Quoting Gerry - 'surname use is linked to discipline isn't it and making sure you know your place in things.'


Others will surely have a similar memory of this happening to them in school even if they were the most well behaved kid in the place. I was one of the behaved ones. I was simply minding my own business at about fifteen going along the corridor by myself and from behind I heard my surname screamed out loud enough half the school must have heard it. That was my middle aged English teacher. He then pointed to a precise spot on the floor he wanted me to stand on as I approached him, like I was a dog being trained. I then made the hideous mistake in his eyes of not being respectful enough and addressing him correctly as Mr Warwick. We never called anyone Sir at school. I'd actually said nothing at all when beckoned over and waited for him to say what he wanted. I got a lecture on how to speak to staff for my troubles for actually saying nothing. I think he commented on my body language too come to think of it. You couldn't win with this sort of guy, the kind of teacher who garnered very little respect out of anyone much. Here's this guy speaking to me like that and at the same time demanding I speak to him correctly and show due deference. Many fifteen year olds of the past will surely know what I'm saying here. I still remember this exchange I had and how mad it made me as I walked away from it, the sheer hypocrisy of demanding of me total respect and use of his name correctly whilst he could summon me with a surname shout, clip of his fingers and point me to where to stick my feet like he was animal training, the stupid old fool.

Greg post from 30th September.

Nice story, quite a few points to pick out.

I agree with you that school showering was very much viewed as one of the growing up rights of passage, and yes we did worry about it. Going to the bathroom at home is seen as quite a private thing even within families isn't it. You don't expect someone else in the household to barge in on you when taking a shower or bath or using the toilet, as close as they may be related to you and live with you. There's a reason they put locks on bathroom doors after all.

When you are tiny none of that matters much but consider the age that you start demanding your own personal privacy in your own home as a youngster and it tends to kick in at around about 10 or 11 I would suggest, the exact time when you go to school that they want you to start sharing showers with your friends (and non-friends/enemies) and in front of non family adults too. You can sort of see why there can be issues that take hold when you consider this. It's actually quite perverse in some ways when looked at in the way I describe.

The other piece you put up about the adults being in charge is also correct. If like me as a youngster you just implicitly trusted more or less every adult and that if they told you to do something then it must be alright. I think at the age I mentioned above you are becoming far more aware of things but also you are still too young, or were in my time, to really question things that happen.

There was another point you made on the actual shower anxiety point. You said 'none of us were keen'. You nail it there for many with that. I've read others talk of fear and anxiety which is fair enough, but few people would probably go as far as to say they were literally terrified or thoroughly scared, but just not keen covers it well. Perhaps it's worth asking what lies behind the 'none of us were keen' point you make. Because you are right on that.

I thought the comment made to you in your hospital bed was incredibly insensitive. At the age of 5 that may have been less of a bother but not when you are 11 years old. Both my parents were in the NHS and one was a nurse who did those kind of things. I'm sure their attitude would have been that they were not embarrassed and neither should the patient be, as they'd seen it all before. That's all very well but nowadays we do try and treat everyone as individuals and comments like that don't help do they.

It's astonishing to read that you didn't have the privacy of pyjama bottoms to wear during your hospitalization. Presumably you were covered by sheets though. But as you say, it's that tired old double standard yet again isn't it.

I was often called Master both verbally by older extended family members when I met them on special occasions and also in letter form. I really liked it, just like you.

Surname calling.

This was my experience across the board at school in the 1960's from quite an early age. I heard my surname more than my first name as a rule. My first name was virtually never said aloud by anyone in school. Even the school doctor when we saw him called me by my surname and the matron.

Isn't it surprising how unfriendly or austere getting called by just your surname feels compared to being addressed by your christian name which feels instantly more friendly.

I don't think it makes any meaningful difference to discipline whether you name people by first name or surname but surname use is linked to discipline isn't it and making sure you know your place in things.

Spencer, 2nd October at 01:29.

You seemed to deal with your anxieties very well in the end, which must have helped you. But don’t think too much about how your initial behaviour must have appeared to others, we’re all just who we were and did what we did when growing up by trying to help ourselves deal with situations we felt uncomfortable with. Similarly, I was really self conscious at that age, doing silly things which I thought helped me at the time, I’m sure many of us did the same. But your technique was much more mature compared to mine.

I remember once being on a school trip in Northumberland. We all went to this secluded lake somewhere for swimming. I always hated swimming, but had packed my swimming trunks so seemingly had planned to join in. Boys and girls were on the trip, and all grouped with our own gender, as you do at that age. I remember most of the kids just changed quickly while sitting on the bank, which accomplished the task very efficiently and quickly, while everyone else was doing the same. What did I decide to do? I walked up the bank and back down to the other side to change on my own, so stupidly making myself more of a spectacle, as I was the only one there for anyone else to notice standing on the top!

I still dreaded showering when my time eventually came to be truthful. My first time I was in and out so quickly and starting to dress, that our fierce Gym teacher shouted at me for putting my shirt back on before properly drying myself. Again attracting more attention when hoping for the opposite. We all learn eventually.

Kids can be really cruel, and my way of dealing with any ridicule, if persistent, was to just push them, which then sometimes turned into a fight. Stupid I know, but I was a child just trying to cope with everything, but can’t imagine how I must have appeared to others thinking back. I must have been a mass of contradictions as it was my nature to try to be quiet and unassuming, but I think people in general, and certainly kids, just try to take advantage of that. At least my immature way did succeed in stopping further ridicule from other boys, which gave me time to work out how to improve with things. Your system was much better.

I went to a state grammar school in the early 1970's

We were always addressed by our surnames, and everyone was expected to address teachers as "sir" - additionally you had to ensure that every reply ended in "sir", thus "Sorry I'm late into PE sir" "Why are you late Williams ?" "Don't know sir" "Wall bars Williams, move"

This applied from year 1 to the 6th form, and in all lessons

Andy and Mark 1st October:

Yes - I saw it, but let us be generous. All teachers are a bit like politicians: Do as I say, not as I do. Let's be generous though, ladies and gentlemen, perhaps when Nathan takes his last class of the afternoon he says, I tell you what boys, why don't you go home and have a nice bath (or shower) in the privacy of your own bathroom.

I am sure you do that, Nathan,don't you?

If I were your headmaster, with all the self importance and omnicience of that great position, I would issue an edict that the whole PE staff take a group shower at the end of each days tutoring. No dawdling, get those track suits off (NO underpants) and get under that lukewarm water. It will hurt me more than it hurts you.......

Just like politicians, rules are for little people, because they know best.

I would like to share a little school shower anxiety story of my own from 1984. I have to admit I was more shy than I should have been at the time which in itself embarrasses me and I wish I could go back and change it.

At primary school when we swam I always used to do the towel thing around the waist when changing with the others before and after swimming. Most of the other boys didn't bother with that, but because I did it invited a bit of ridicule and looking back made things far worse for me than they would have been if I'd just not been so insecure and as I now think of it, rather silly I suppose.

This created a situation where I'd basically advertised my naked body anxiety to the whole class. Most didn't care but a couple kept up the ridicule. I didn't deal with it very well at the time but as a fifty year old man now, there is no point giving myself a hard time for the boy I was when I was only a very young eleven years old. I didn't know any better at the time and acted in the interests of my own self preservation as I saw it.

When we all went off to the comprehensive school there was one boy who never let me forget the swimming changing room at primary school and knew just how to press my buttons. He kept telling me how I was going to have to shower naked. I knew that anyway. Worst luck would have it that he got stuck in my class at comprehensive and so would be in my PE lesson there and in the changing room with me, and with it, share the showers.

My first PE lesson at comprehensive in the September of '84 went well. Teachers seemed fine, I didn't have an aversion to actually doing PE at all. We didn't shower that first time but we did get told that we must bring our towels the next time and be prepared ready to shower when the lesson finished. That was a real heart pounder to hear the PE teacher say the words out loud. I knew the moment had finally come and nothing I could say or do was going to change it.

The boy who had been ridiculing me over my shyness since the swimming many months earlier in our primary was actually waiting at the school gates on the morning of the next PE lesson as I walked into school. I can see his face right now and hear what he said to me. I really thought he was very strange and weird, but he rubbed his hands together and with a big smirky grin told me he couldn't wait to see me in the showers later. This is at age twelve I'm talking about but that was just so very weird, even now I think it was.

The PE lesson came first period. It was football. I remember this boy smirking at me throughout the lesson every time he caught my eye. I knew what he really wanted was for me to create fuss and try and wriggle out of things so he could continue the ridicule up another notch.

When the moment came for my first shower after PE I can only describe it as a huge relief and in some ways a bit of an anti-climax. I ended up in the shower before the ridiculing boy classmate, whose full name I could use but prefer not to. He came into the shower near to me but that cheshire cat smirking grin from the school gate had completely gone from his face. I turned facing him full on and asked him if he had anything he'd like to say to me and he could barely bring himself to even look at me after everything he had been saying, and there I was, like him and a few others around us, completely naked as the day I was born and he had nothing to say and didn't want to look in my direction at me.

After all his bravado and ridiculing of me I was convinced he ended up more nervous than me when the time came. I was never bothered with any further ridicule again out of him. I haven't seen him since the age of sixteen and no longer know his whereabouts but I would welcome a chance if it arose to ask him if he remembers this and what he would say now looking back to 1984, was that really 39 years ago, it's like the day before yesterday in my thoughts.

Talking about the fear of showering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEnTThSRa_g

I think I know what you're alluding to Andy but I want to see if anyone else actually comes in and says it first.

There's an obvious gotcha line in Nathan's post today. How long will it take to be pulled out and used against him.

I feel like I'm being put on the defensive yet again here with some of these previous exchanges.

I think the best way to deal with fear and anxiety is to confront it head on. So if there is something you need to do that makes you anxious try and do it, don't go for avoidance techniques instead. Facing things head on and doing them in most cases lessens the anxiety or fear afterwards. This philosophy can most easily be demonstrated across many aspects of PE and with young people. Whether that be doing some kind of sporting activity that you are unsure or deeply unconfident about down to worrying about the simple everyday non remarkable act of just removing a shirt for a bit, and this most definitely applies to showering I would say. Yes of course I'm aware that people have little anxieties about such things, but that is only what I would class as entirely normal thinking and nothing unusual or unexpected.

The comment by Wayne here has managed to help me out rather timely to prove my point nicely. He says PE was his top worry before he started his school but when he actually did it then that anxiety in his own words, evaporated.

Now where it would concern me would be if anxiety and fear remained at a high level for anyone after many months without settling down, or a year or more into school. So if there was a pattern of continued avoidance of entire PE lessons with unauthorised absences or maybe such avoidance/absence on days with specific activities timetabled in, then it would be noted.

I was asked if I took showers at school. Yes I did, in two different schools actually, and at university as well. They were all open area group communal style and shared. I can shower at work if I wish to, alone with a private cubicle for adult PE use only but I often come home and do so, I like a good long hot bath now and again after a long week at work.

The thought that some of those I take for PE now would write some of these type of comments on a future forum in fifty years time would rather make me feel like I'd failed in some way and rather upset me.

Isn't just going to school a form of child conscription in itself anyway. So you've got conscription within conscription there. That word always seems to me to be quite provocative even though it generally gets used in a military context. Military analogies often seem to be used on here to describe school PE lessons I've noticed.

I think a lot of people who dislike PE, or having to do it by taking their shirts off or the showering are no more than people who just don't like being told what to do by anybody.

Without any hesitation it is so easy for me to remember what the No1 thing was that got me most anxious about going to senior school before I actually even got there - SCHOOL SHOWER CONSCRIPTION.

That's how I thought of it.

Now that's over 45 years ago in my case when the world was a lot less touchy feely about everything. So you can't tell me that in these days those same thoughts don't pass through the minds of the current crop in school if they go to places that operate showers for PE, and make them do it.

My own shower anxiety did evaporate quite quickly once I'd done the initial deed. I doubt I would have done it as a volunteer.

My eldest sister is a lawyer specialising in data protection, privacy, civil liberties and european law. I myself work in probation. We have spoken about the human rights act and the childrens act 1989 this weekend after I read some of the comments on here on Friday night and the high strength of feeling. My sisters lawyerly opinion was that anyone bringing a case on human rights grounds on school shower mandates would in her professional opinion be unlikely to succeed and if someone approached her to make the case against the Dept Of Education or the Education Secretary, or local education authorities to render mandatory school showering unlawful she would not consider it. But that's just one lawyer, another may have a different opinion, if you pay for it.

Jason Bailey, thank you.

I enjoyed getting my own letter addressed to 'Master' when I was little, though I'm speaking back to the 60s, so a long time ago now. i don't see why this should not be used any more. Is it resented now for some reason?

As far as school showering is concerned, I certainly had go through that back in the late 60s into the 70s. None of us were keen I remember, as we obviously knew it was looming and talked about it, I remember that too. We seemed to think of it as a sort of right of passage into growing up at big school. But, what I particularly remember, was becoming 'hardened' to nudity in front of others just before Secondary School started, due to being on a children's ward for 3 months with my fractured femur.

I was in traction, so my leg in a Thomas Splint, which meant I was unable to get out of bed for weeks, also unable to wear pyjama bottoms, so just a jacket. I really didn't like the morning bed bath rituals, which frequently seemed to be given to me by two student nurses, who were probably only a few years older than me at that time. Some of them were very nice and respectful, but others were giggly and made me feel embarrassed and uncomfortable. I was a good looking kid which just made me more self-conscious. Perhaps my hair had grown a little during the summer break, but there was a particular morning, amongst others, that always stuck in my mind. After they'd washed my top half with jacket removed, on lowering the blankets to wash below, one of them blurted out, 'Oh I thought you were a little girl!' It might seem funny to some now, but it was an awful moment for me at that time, and I can vividly remember the feeling of just not knowing how to react, while feeling rather uncomfortable anyway. I was only 11, but I wasn't 5, and this is an example of something a girl would just never have to experience and put up with. I was placed alone in a side room for weeks for whatever reason, but they'd routinely leave the door wide open to a public corridor, even during moments like this. There was absolutely no privacy thought necessary for boys back then, so much so that I even think some took advantage of this. It was frequently and strictly observed for girls though. Societies have often thought this way down the years, I wonder why?

I eventually got used to this behaviour, and couldn't object, so school showering, even though not being able to do Gym/Games for weeks though still attend, I think was a little easier to cope with because of the previous months. It's surprising what kids got used to back then, as whatever we encountered was accepted as normal, as when so young there's nothing to compare anything with, and all 'adults' were respected and in charge. Certainly wouldn't be like this today, as I think we now live in an age where kids are given more respect and regard than ever before.

I broadly agree with Luke. It is a big anxiety, why pretend otherwise.

Just because nobody says anything doesn't mean the issue isn't out there.

That's boys for you. A male teacher surely knows this basic fact about boys.

Boys can keep their cards very close to their chests.

Comment by: Luke on 29th September 2023 at 22:50


Luke, you have my full sympathy. I completely understand, and judging by the responses many men have given here, it is clear we were not alone.

I have tried explaining to Nathan and others that it would be a very unusual lad who would actually say openly to a teacher that they had shower fear, because the teacher (and other pupils who might be listening) would doubtless not understand, find them risible and laugh at them, but so many boys went through this torture I am surprised that psychology is not taught as part of every PE teachers training. Threats and shouting are not the answer. Everyone suffered in silence. These days especially, and certainly throughout the last 20/30 years most people have showers at home, and I think it would be best if PE lessons were scheduled as the last period of the morning or afternoon, so the lads could go home and make their own arrangements - either that or stop the gang shower routine, and have individual cubicles, or a teacher "inspecting" the ablutions. Especially when you have dubious teachers like our Mr R and, as we see far too frequently in the newspapers, there are still far too many of his sort lurking about.

Nathan, are you saying that you think school shower fear doesn't exist?

If so I think you are wrong there. Did you shower at school yourself?

My school forced the showers on us and that was just over thirty years ago now. In the first month or two there was a lot of shower fear going on and attempts to escape doing them until we got a quite big warning about our continuing misbehaviour. That's right, not feeling too keen to shower and show off my privates was classed as misbehaviour where I attended in 1989-93. Everyone should have a right to refuse without question.

It looks to me like you pay lip service to such things from your earlier reply.

What a good comment Matthew S.

I'd forgotten about that but you're right. Even if you were a kid growing up in the 70s or 80s as recently as that you would find that when you got mail from friends and relatives for your birthday or Christmas it would often be addressed to Master. It always was to me from all kinds of people in the family from aunts, uncles and grandparents as well as others. Not my actual parents though. I seem to think I was getting mail addressed to Master Jason until I was about 16 and it stopped.

At school I was Master to nobody, no surprise I'm going to be another to say that all the PE lot called me Bailey and I think I'd have died of shock if they'd suddenly called out to me as Jason, it just wasn't what PE teachers seemed to be like, no idea why. It's almost like there was some edict from upon high, thy shalt not call boys their first names in PE in the same way for many of us it was thou shalt not allow boys their shirts in gym.

We had some horrendously bad nicknames for various teachers across the school. I can't believe most of them remained unaware of them, they must have filtered back somehow in some way.

Comment by: Will on 29th September 2023 at 14:19


Of course you can say so, Will. You can say what you like it is a free country.

I do not have a title, and I don't like being treated with deference - either giving it OR receiving it, - that is all. It is bourgeois these days, I feel. Even if I had a legitimate title I wouldn't use it. I am not that insecure.

I know this is unrelated to PE, but further to the interesting things that have been said about names and forms of address, can I mention the decline of addressing boys on envelopes as "Master" before forename and surname?

I found this interesting comment, that the practice "at one time given to boys up to the age of 12 or 13, has largely gone out of fashion. If adopted at all, it is now restricted to small boys up to the age of about 8 years, but is generally disliked by them" ("Debrett's Correct Form" by Patrick Montague-Smith, Headline Publishing, 1992 ed).

I remember being addressed as "Master", on a card or postcard from an older relative, at the age of nineteen. I had no objection.

I have followed the various comments made about PE and the picture of the boys in the gym is similar to the experience that I had. However, my school time was the mid 60s and our shorts were much shorter similar to the style worn at the time of the 66 World Cup.
During a conversation with some friends we were recalling our days at school and because one of those present has a child currently attending High School and made a comparison with the timetable and lessons that I experienced and the current situation.
It seems that the lesson periods are shorter, and PE is mainly a games session either indoors or out, or field sports. according to season and weather.
It seems that gymnastics is not included except for the pupils who have taken PE as an option for exams , presumably they are thinking of a career in teaching PE or some associated area.
Does any one know whether this is general across education or do most schools still include gymnastics i.e. vaulting horse wall bars etc.?

Sarcastic sounding teachers constantly referring to teenagers as Mister So and So, or Miss So and So was a factor of life for me in school and that just felt naff. I think I'd have just preferred my actual name or even just the surname even, going full Mister and Miss with youngsters sounded daft and as I said, sarcastic even if it wasn't intended to be as such.

So Alan you don't like being called Sir by anyone. But that is an incredibly polite and respectful way to address anybody, why would you take issue with that, especially as you have taken issue with the way you have been treated in the past in a less than respectful manner. You seem quite hard to please if you don't mind me saying so.

Thanks for your continued input Nathan. What you say sounds perfectly sensible to me.

I was called by my surname in PE and one or two others. I had one of those names that has the potential for problems but didn't seem to. Feather.

Generally speaking I don't refer to anyone by just a surname, everything is first names, but there are a few exceptions such as if there is a need to tell someone off firmly I've been known to resort to just a surname once in a while.

On that showering question I think I answered something very similar previously some time ago but I'll repeat, what would I say to someone who asked not to, well I'd find out what the problem was first if it arose. In the end unless there was a medical issue you'd be expected to take a PE shower with everyone else and be strongly encouraged to or told to but if anyone was really set against it then I wouldn't ever actually force the issue and I don't think anyone else would either. But it really doesn't feature as an issue.

One for Alastair whose never heard of another person with the surname Orange.

There's a very well known one. Take That's Jason Orange. He was briefly on my bedroom wall in about 1995.

So now you know another!

I too enjoyed that nickname, that's the trouble with some names in school isn't it, they lay you open for big trouble if you're unlucky to have a name you can't do anything about. But that final point was well made about kids and cruelty in school. There has been a huge amount of emphasis on teachers from the likes of people such as Alan but it is well worth remembering that many unhappy youngsters at school are not made unhappy by their teachers, their subjects, their PE or being made to shower or whatever else but simply by the others they are forced to join each day alongside them in school. Kids can indeed be cruel.

I was just giving this some thought and thinking out of my last class in school how many of them I would be pleased to see again and the truth is that it amounted to about two of them, I'd have no interest in coming across anybody else or knowing about them. I wonder if anyone else holds a similar view to mine?