Burnley Grammar School

How many parents even knew what their children were doing in school p.e lessons most of the time out of interest.

Two of my sons are now 41 and 47, so you can do the maths about when they were at school. As soon as the eldest left the youngest started and got a heads up from the eldest, always useful to get the info on teachers, who's liked or not and all the rest of it. Prompted by reading the comments on this history site about old days p.e I just found out that both of them did widespread p.e lessons across the board during their time without the shirts and vests we used to buy each school year and send them in with, nine times out of ten they reckon the whole gym wasn't ever wearing any of the p.e kit tops in their bags. I don't mind but schools ought to just say so if that is their thing rather than stating p.e kits to bring along and then barely utilising them for the intended purpose.


When I was an older boy 11+ at school, and I'm now 74, we had a pristine white indoor p.e kit and always wore it with plimsolls, there was no shirtless p.e in my school, no team skins or any of that. It all seemed quite civilised actually. The only time anyone was seen in a state of undress was in the changing room and we had to be quick about that. Showers were standard obviously, so that was the universally accepted way of the school world irrespective of p.e kits and like the other gentleman has mentioned, importance was placed on proper personal hygiene and a complete body wash in school irrespective of personal privacy concerns or body shyness which hygiene overrode. The p.e lessons I had were well organised and well behaved with few disciplinary problems or troubles regarding lack of interest.

re Robbie 18 July

Thanks for posting the full video. I've only seen the trampolining section before, and wondered what happened after the PE teacher orders "Showers! Run!", a command which made me shiver with dread, as it was given at the of every gym period in our school.

Can anyone remember the proper name for that exercise, hanging from the wall-bars and bringing your legs up to 90 degrees?

We did it as part of circuit training, introduced to our Scottish boys grammar school in the 60s. The other exercises were press-ups, bench lifts (bench hooked over wall-bars and lifted from ground to over your head), squat thrusts, burpees, sit-ups, forty repetitions (at least good attempts) of each. We did the circuit at the start of each period and every month we did a whole period of six circuits. We all of a sudden came to realize why we were shirtless!

Our PE teacher was a no-nonsense Army PTI, who also introduced PE detentions to supplement the gymshoe and tawse. Yes I accepted his approach but would hardly say I approved of it (Mark's comment 28 July) but he had the right to introduce it as a fully qualified teacher and he never crossed the line.

I'm taken by the fact you are willing to call yourself out for an irrational anxiety there Louis in what I thought was a cool post. I also share your view on cricket too. That was also a quite thought provoking final sentence.

Looking back I definitely had an irrational anxiety about not being allowed a top to wear in a PE class, which was commonplace in my time, infact almost permanent for gym at secondary school in the early 80's. Seeing those 4 years of PE like that lying ahead seemed like forever at the time. I bunked a few classes at the time for varying reasons, anticipating doing stuff I didn't want to take part in, barechested PE and naked showers played a big part in that during my debut year in 79/80 which was rife with bunking off PE mostly through feigning sickness and sitting it out rather than being a total no show. There always seemed to be a couple of boys sitting aside, sometimes it was me. I regret that.

However where I possibly differ from some contributors on here who seem to hold a quite strong view or feel a sense of bitterness is that I don't feel any such things, actually quite the reverse, I wish I'd had my older head on my shoulders at that younger age and accepted and got stuck in more without the worrying PE could give me.

None of my PE teachers were dreadful people at all, I liked one or two of them quite a bit but just not the things we did. If there is one thing that does make me unhappy about the past it is the narrow minded attitudes of the time about what kind of sports boys liked doing and the lack of widening it out. Too much being forced out onto the football pitch for instance on the out days, and summer cricket bored the pants off me, standing about doing nothing but fielding and kicking my heels. I remember a few times going out to the sports field, standing still for the whole lesson and simply walking back in, having done literally nothing, and still had the take the shower. It looks like it's been said before and I'll say it again, those showers were mighty important to our PE teachers in the past weren't they, but to be fair I can't get too worked up about all that or the shirtless nature they made us do PE in. It was what it was, and as you suddenly find yourself getting a lot older than you ever thought you'd be the past normally looks ever rosier but PE in school seems to buck that trend for some in a big way.

Rob/Scott:

I was formal because DH decided to use both his forename and surname in his posts, which suggests he likes formality. I have a customer who always refers to himself as "MR ****" on the phone., so being friendly is a non-starter. Give the customer what he wants!.

Comment by: Scott on 29th July 2023 at 18:20
I note and am amused by the way you are referring to 'Mister' Hind almost as if you were one of the pupils at school.



I was just going to say this myself.

I note and am amused by the way you are referring to 'Mister' Hind almost as if you were one of the pupils at school.

This reminds me of the unwavering respect we always had to show to our teachers at all times by addressing them correctly but they didn't really have to show us the same respect when addressing us using our surnames and it was PE that was the worst for it.

I remember sarcastic teachers would sometimes call us Mister if we were doing something wrong like not listening in class.

David, I would remind you of what Mr. Hind wrote back in May:

"Comment by: Nathan Hind on 25th May 2023 at 22:28
I think I'm quite approachable and pupils often have one-to-one contact about a variety of issues with me. What gets worn, or not in PE is rarely a discussion point. Anybody is free to say anything that troubles them at any point. Alone if they wish. The occasional bare chested PE has not cropped up with me ever. Showering has a couple of times with other colleagues, not with pupils but parents wanting reassurance."


Reading that suggests that if boys were bothered he wouldn't press the point. I just want him to clarify that. He is clearly younger than us (I guess in his mid 30s), so it seem unusual to have such old fashioned ideas, if he forces the issue. It would be interesting to know what sort of school he attended himself, and what sort of school he teaches in now - I certainly don't think he would go down well in the very ordinary comprehensive schools where I live now.

But it is for Mr Hind to answer for himself.

One other point I would ask ALL of you to remember, whatever side of the clothing fence you are on. The namby pamby governments this country has had in the past 25 years have decreed that any lad or girl unable to find a job at 16 can be forced to stay on at school till they are 18. 18 year olds are men and women - they were in our day, most certainly they are now. Is it correct or even decent to "dictate" (your word, David, not mine) how they dress and herd them into the showers against their will at the end?. Just to get one thing straight - I prefer to be clean and showered all the time, but for anyone who has a phobia against it, it doesn't mean they are "dirty" it just means they have a problem, like those who can't stand mice or spiders. For Christ's sake lets start treating adults as adults.

To set the scene, I was private school educated between ages eleven and eighteen, 1970-77 in Southampton.

I don't think anyone ever actually chooses the shirtless option at school do they, it's always been one of those decisions that gets made for you, either by one of your teachers or even by one of your others in class if they were choosing a team and selecting a skin or a shirt. I remember selecting a team for my side on a couple of occasions and having to pick a skins side once a teacher had pointed at me and told me I was going to captain a skins side. Both times I did this I was actually outside but it did also happen inside the gym. None of this was any problem to me because I was the kind of kid at home who would hang about shirtless a lot, I'd get up in the morning and come down to the breakfast table in the dining room and eat with the family without getting dressed first, even on school days, often sitting there in just a pair of pants. On school days only getting dressed and ready at the last moment possible before the drive in from another parent who picked me up with her son. I hated the strict school uniform we had to do ourselves up in possibly as much as some others hated taking everything off for P.E. In the summer we were allowed to take our ties off and I got done once for unbuttoning my shirt completely so it hung open. It's interesting to see others my age now with a completely differing viewpoint. There was a teacher I had who used to clap his hands in P.E and shout, shirts off, when we did gym tests and sometimes on the apparatus, but it was quite a random thing. Casting my mind back to it all, we did seem rather a fit bunch of kids and extremely lean with it. The only reason I can think of why it should become a worry for anyone is if they are on the fat side of things alone like that in a class of lean boys but I can't see where the problem lies when you are very similar to everyone around you. My school went very big on bracing shirtless long distance runs in the fresh air of up to ninety minutes duration once in a while which I found rather agreeable myself as someone who liked being outdoors as much as possible. They were not everyone's cup of tea but certainly mine.

We were separated into two separate ability groups based on fitness tests we took and questions we answered when we started. I was in the top ability group, simply known as A. The other being B. Once we were placed into our group that seemed to be that, nobody seemed to change between one group and the other, so if you improved greatly in the lower group you didn't seem to get moved upwards to match your improvement, or vice versa. It was very competitive, even between teachers. There were two changing rooms and which one we used depended on which ability group we had been placed in and that was your one from then on. Showers were compulsory, watched closely and enforced with an iron rod. Group nudity in school was to be as expected as much as doing your times tables, long divisions and algebra in maths and knowing your verbs, adverbs and pronouns in English. I found such things a positive bonding experience and some of these people I shared these intimate school things with are my lifelong friends like no uthers I've had since.

First time poster, read through many of the pages this week though.

Well Ralph I disliked shirtless PE intensely, but wouldn't say it's abusive to make you do it in cases like mine BUT in this day and age (not in mine) I do think to harass and force guys into the showers in school against their will should be considered an abuse if it is an open free for all. I remember how all my PE teachers used to really harass boys in the shower room after PE. What do I mean by harass, well literally standing invading your personal space making you strip down while shouting in your ears. Maybe I was ahead of my time but that never sat quite right with me and that was rather a while ago now in beginning in 1980.

Is it me or does there seem to be something of a divide in attitude between the older guys here who went to school before about 1975 and the younger ones. The forty and fifty year olds seem to be calling things out a bit while the sixty and overs seem to accept and approve of their lot in school.

If you read one of his previous comments you'd already know the answer to that question Alan. Is he not allowed to dictate the terms of his own lessons anymore in your opinion?

Comment by: Nathan Hind on 27th July 2023 at 22:45


As I recall you are a P.E. teacher. Were these July 2023 lessons at the students own request or by diktat?

Comment by: Toby on 23rd July 2023 at 11:05
I'd be amazed if shirtless PE had been a thing in the UK for the last 30 years or more.


It's been a thing this year, 2023 Toby. Infact it's been a thing this month.

If a lad who isn't keen is now told in PE to take whatever top he wears off and go barechested is that now to be considered abusive then?

What about when me and my pals were told to remove everything we had on and shower, is that now retrospectively to be considered abuse too?

My view - NO.

Comment by: Tony on 25th July 2023 at 19:09

I take it, by the way you put the word in quotation marks, Tony, that you had no problems with school and schoolteachers. I am delighted for you, but the damage some of these "men" do lives on a long time, perhaps never fully goes away for those who were genuinely affected.

I am not suggesting abuse ONLY happens at the hands of schoolmasters, but it has to admitted their profession turns up far too many times in court cases involving lewd behaviour, in the same way that far too many in the Met Police have been accused of sexual assault, and doctors as well (the latter usually blaming it on "drink problems").

The problem is these people have the opportunity more than a man who stack shelves in Tesco or works on a building site. They are protected by their mates in the same profession who turn a blind eye.

I am just genuinely disgusted that at this late stage, with all the apparent possibilities of weeding them out of the recruitment process, so many of the rotten apples remain in the barrel some of them thanks to the cowardice of their colleagues who know what they are getting up to.

Not to ignore those who 'suffered' in school, it's also worth adding that adult abusers against young people exist outside of education/PE too, most of them being direct family members actually.

Alan, Perhaps people do not send their sons to such schools because they want them to suffer, but because they attended such schools themselves and, far from suffering, found the emphasis on high standards, effort, attainment, fitness and hygiene wholly to their advantage. At times it may have seemed tough, but learning to cope rather than being able to opt out is not a bad lesson for life.

Toby I agree with you. If I can be allowed to say so, it worries me how so many people trawl through old videos and school websites to try to disprove the theory that schools are more understanding of child psychology these days. I have no doubt a few people who send their sons to places with a tough reputation survive on ancient practices, and I am astonished parents want their kids to suffer (presumably because they did themselves).

I think there should be far more outside supervision of schools and teachers, so unfortunate cases like this are not still getting into the newspapers in 2023:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1794524/Paedophile-revelations-rock-school-of-BBC-boss-and-Premier-League-footballers

That school has closed by the look of it Matthew. I wonder if the new entity has followed suit.

I wonder what official policy is on this at the Dept of Education nowadays, or even if there is any policy in the first place. In a sane world there shouldn't be but they like to micromanage every aspect of our lives nowadays so it's wise to assume there is a policy.

Matthew: When someone posts an actual school prospectus list like that I'm always interested to know how they discovered it if it isn't a school they are personally involved or have knowledge of.

That prospectus list reminds me of a comment a few months ago I read here where someone said their own school prospectus refused to say PE was done shirtless but simply left out mention of wearing a specific top. The school list you linked here does the same doesn't it.

I wonder why they are fine with writing down pupils must do PE in their bare feet but don't feel they can openly mention the bare chest part of it, instead just going with a mention of shorts only, not mentioning any top at all.

The PE list resembles quite strongly my own primary school years and I can only wonder if there might be an old school prospectus of mine laying about in my own parents attic somewhere if they kept all the info we used to get given for home.

In my primary PE was done in the school hall, there was no actual gym. The school hall was not a particularly private place to do PE either, with open walkways on two sides and a third side with a large open doorway. Boys and girls didn't even have a separate changing room, instead we had to divide the one room into boys one end and girls the other, although there was a clothes rail you could hang things on in the middle to offer a little privacy from young wandering eyes.

But the boys in our primary were not afforded a great deal of bodily privacy, once changed we had to line up outside the changing room door wearing our shorts, nowt on our feet and nowt covering our upper bodies and wait to be taken the short distance to the hall, a line for boys and a line for girls. They wore a mixture of leotards or shorts and vest or tee shirt. This was an all year round occurrence. It could be very nippy in January. I had shorts with pockets and got told off while waiting and told to take my hands out of my shorts pockets by one old bag I used to have.

I remember learning from a very young age at primary and picking up that boys got treated differently to girls and that what we looked like was not considered to be important and that we were not supposed to care.

Looking through the long staff list every single member except one was female. But that doesn't prevent that school doing boys PE in the old traditional way even in 2012 which is noteworthy in some respects wouldn't you think. In my primary there were a lot of male teachers, at least half a dozen I can think of, but I always had women taking my PE lessons.

This took place in the late 70s.

I still believe the small number of examples on this site are the exception. I draw on sources and evidence of elsewhere as well as my own direct and friends' anecdotal experience.

Even in the late 80s the experience was rare in my school, hence my embarrassment at revealing my protuberant belly button never abating.

From a historical point of view, I think the period from the 1930s into the 1970s (and, I suppose, arguably the 1980s) feels so different from now. Not least in terms of ability to purchase uniform, attitudes to diversity, and attitudes to discipline.

Toby, this is the website, still online, of a former primary school. As recently as ten or so years ago, it says in the PDF prospectus, boys did PE in the hall in shorts only.

https://balbystreet.wordpress.com/prospectus/school-prospectus-2012-2013/

Post number 5000 doesn't surprise or amaze me, it's just everyday normal PE as I remembered it less than ten years earlier.

Further to a couple of previous comments a few days ago on gym bars, a good example of using them as punishment from this Jack Rosenthal film set in a post war British grammar that I still remember watching in the very early days of Channel 4.

https://youtu.be/beRBBch-g_c?t=630

Yes Alan, I watched a Wogan Blankety Blank from May 1979 on BBC iPlayer over the weekend and was immediately struck by the picture quality I was seeing, which looked sharper and clearer than it must have gone out at the time when TV's didn't do that kind of definition but perhaps BBC equipment could. Some current TV is being shown in poorer picture quality.

I don't want to shatter Dave's, or anyone else's illusions, but just because something has been uploaded to You Tube in the past couple of years doesn't automatically make it contemporary. If you look at TV for example, you can see programmes made in the 1980s repeated today have the same sort of picture and sound quality as a programme made last week. It might be that the YT film was made 30 years ago. For some reason the quality of VT improved leaps and bounds from the 1970s to the 1980s, and of course, old film and videotape can now be remastered

Post #5,000.

Rest assured Toby I can invite you to be amazed. Secondary school which I went to from 1993 to 1999 in the first half of my time there, so up until 1996, possibly 1997, school "required" us to present ourselves for the school sports hall in trainers, optional white socks, shorts which had to be mostly dark navy blue or black in colour with no highly obvious branding and nothing on top at all, PE was shirtless for me between ages 11 and 14 and that particular choice was made for us. But it came as no surprise because school told us everything before we started there.

I remember the school tour we were given by a chap who was the head of languages who barged us into various actual classes around the school and forced various teachers to stop what they were doing and make a few words for us. He did this in the school sports hall filing us into the side of it while a lesson was underway and the first thing that hit me was that every single one of the lads in there was shirtless. But this fact wasn't mentioned itself by anyone in that moment. Many of them were doing what seemed like running on the spot furiously and nearly all of them looked over at us and stopped. I remember the PE teacher in there asking us what we thought and none of us knowing quite what to answer back. We got filled in on some things we'd do in there. He then gave our school guide permission to look around the changing room nearby which we all went into and stood looking around quite awkwardly, it was full of uniform, shirts, trousers, shoes, sports bags, towels, jackets, coats, etc all over the place from the class we'd just interrupted and one end was a huge communal walk in showering area glaring at us. I remember it looking very clean and dry and thinking it doesn't get used until our school guide got asked about showers at school by someone. When we walked back on ourselves in that area a few minutes later we heard the loud sound of running water coming from the room we'd been in ten minutes earlier and knew those boys must be in the showers. I remember that sound making my heart race. I showered at school nearly every PE lesson until I was 14 and a half and then it sort of stopped being demanded of us so much. This would be about early 1997 and kind of matched with the time we had to do shirtless sports hall PE.

All very much within the past 30 years Toby.

It was the same with me when I'd go on holiday and was never bothered being on the beaches in my swimming trunks with all kinds of people, and girls my age, and others around me, but back at school for PE when we did some gym lessons with a few girls involved I'd instinctively go into bashful mode when my shirt had to come off. I'm applying these feelings to being aged from 12 to 16 years old.

John: Yeah it's a good point I guess. All of they boys ara automatically shirtless for swimming even in co-ed lessons. What's the difference being in the gym? It would've been the same as it has been for many decades in most schools.

Comment by: Toby on 23rd July 2023 at 11:05
I'd be amazed if shirtless PE had been a thing in the UK for the last 30 years or more.


Why would it amaze you Toby? There have been quite a few over the months on here suggest they did so even since the early 90's haven't there, and didn't Nathan quite recently state that his school did some element of shirtless PE now and again too and that skins v shirts is certainly still going on.

Schools all take swimming at some point don't they and in doing that all the boys will go barechested automatically without needing to be told, and that will probably be in mixed company, yet the same level of shirtless phobia or self consciousness seems lacking when it comes to the pool compared to the gym. Why don't people think of swimming in school as the same as PE, when it clearly is. Nobody even today would expect boys swimming to be done anything other than shirtless would they.