Burnley Grammar School

Tanya, you'd like to try bareskin running? The trouble is you'd have to cheat and not really be bareskin at all, so it wouldn't be bareskin running would it. But let's suppose you or any other woman wanted and was able to do bareskin running in the manner it says, topless, would this not be uncomfortable for any long distances without any actual support unless you were almost completely flat chested?

I'm an identical twin, and when I was younger, I'm now 42, I never had a problem at school in PE doing things that involved taking my shirt off, which was quite often under certain PE teachers, one in particular simply wouldn't allow them on in the gym or in the summer term field sports we did. I was fine with that. I also would do things, and still do, like painting the fence and outside household chores without bothering with a shirt. Some days in summer on days off I've been known to just get up and not even bother from the get go with a shirt. I have a tattoo on my back so someone needs to see it! I'm happy with how my body looks, and it looks exactly the same as my identical twin brother but he has a completely different outlook to me, not quite so confident of himself, he'd never remove his top at any time and never liked doing so in school much either where we shared the same teachers. Doing one of those bareskin runs that Craig talked about would be right up my street but not his. I never actually ran a cross country at school with my shirt off either, same as Ben said. That was probably because it wasn't done in school itself. I look on going shirtless as a confidence thing but whether that played any part in why PE teachers made boys do it is more questionable.

When you're a twin they try their best in school to keep you both apart in classes but our paths collided with PE in upper school on a lot of occasions with combined PE classes merging together and despite our identical appearance I was always the more sporty of the two of us and it was this that marked us easily apart. We were also on first name terms with our PE teachers, not many of the others seemed to be. We were very close twins but in the changing rooms for PE we would never sit next to each other and were always opposite ends. I didn't mind but my twin tried hard not to be close to me when we had to go into the showers after PE and wished we had not been in the same PE class. You get used to constant twin comparisons as a child but even some close knit 14 and 15 year old twins don't really want to share that kind of thing and put up with the twin comparison banter we would get.

One thing in PE that me and my twin did seem remarkably similar at was short track sprinting, often sprinting directly against each other and nobody else and posting identical times, crossing the line together. At one point both of us were asked to go on the school team but neither fancied it because it meant what amounted to regular after school PE on top of what we already did and I thought we did enough already at the time. I rather regret that decision now.

Good thread this.

Reading about Craig's bareskin running suggests that quite a large part of the populace has a secret (and not so secret in those that do it) desire to show a lot off. A couple of summers ago a quite normal looking and well heeled boss of mine went and did the naked London bike ride. So maybe there's an opening for a bareskin biking club too along the lines of the running.

I left school in the mid 90s and the only time I ever took my top off in PE lessons was when we did basketball. That's it, no other time, so when we got the order to remove our tops in a lesson it did feel like a quite big deal if you were the chosen ones, although we showered in PE most days so it's not as if we were kept under wraps unseen.

Alan et al.
National Service ...
was reintroduced in 1948 for a limited period of 18 months but later extended to two years and all 17-21 year olds were 'liable', but with exceptions. As I recall, the great majority served in the Army, a smaller number in the RAF and a comparatively small number in the Royal Navy - the reason for this being the extra amount of training time required.

There were exemptions - often on medical grounds (someone said once that I might not have been called up because I have very flat feet(!)). 'Deferment' could happen if a man was in 'essential work' (on the railways, for example) but that didn't prevent 'call up' later (a friend - on the railways - had 'deferment' and thought he'd escaped but was called up very close to his 21st. I recall him saying that a good proportion of his intake had their 21st birthdays during their training).

Other men could be 'directed' into service elsewhere. A late friend, a doctor well known in later life, was very fit but also very short sighted. On qualification he was not put into the forces but was 'directed' into 'General Practice'. Another friend qualified as a 'Petroleum Engineer' - instead of the forces he was sent to Iran to work for the 'Anglo-Persian Oil Company' (correctly 'Anglo-Iranian').

How those of us who missed 'National Service' by six years or so would have got on I don't know and I'm not going to think about it here.

As others have said - a lot of the PE in the 1950s would reflect the fact that boys would be entering the Armed Services and it would be better for them if they were fit. Younger PE teachers would have done their 'time' and seen unfit recruits suffering - however harsh it might seem now there was a reason for it.

The Wikipedia article looks 'fair', and there was a book published in 2012 by Shire Publications, simply entitled 'National Service...'

T

I must admit if I saw a handful of people 'bareskin' running like you Craig, especially at night time like you said you sometimes do, I'd automatically think you were all a bit nutty in the nicest sense of English eccentricity. But you sound quite grounded, so good luck with it and I'll try not to be so judgemental if I do see anyone about in my place doing anything similar to you. You must all be quite proud of the way your bodies look to be able to do this. Were you this confident in school and did you do much PE like this yourself then?

Tanya - Are women allowed Craig? ;-)


Not had any yet in our group Tanya but why not, subject to the obvious difference it would make.

Thanks Ben and Neil. We average 5 or 6 of us when we go out, sometimes more than 10 at a time. The more that join our local Bareskins Whatsapp group the better. I recommend if it is a genuine interest and you enjoy running then set something up. Ours took off quite fast. Will be doing our next on Saturday evening for a 6 mile circuit of our locality, so far with 4 others and hoping for a couple more yet.

Ken's post;

Knowing what I was like at 11 or 12 if I'd been presented with a compulsory naked swimming lesson I think I'd have rather drowned the moment I jumped in.

The mandatory bare chest for internal sports hall gym was the PE kit rule for the boys in my old school when I arrived from age twelve until sixteen. Most boys I knew did this without much argument. It probably wouldn't have been a good look to express a dislike for disrobing your shirt for PE and this is perhaps why it often seems like everyone was fine with it. I think the same thing goes with the school showers of the time. Who would have dared express an unwillingness to disrobe for those?

The only time I felt excruciatingly self conscious in PE was when I threw a ball in anger and it accidentally hit someone else on the head and I was sent outside the sports hall door and had to stand there with my hands on my head for half an hour in the corridor in only my shorts and plimsolls, no top, all kinds of male and female staff and pupils going by giving me disapproving/sympathetic/amused looks. A favourite tool of one of my teachers to do that with wayward types in his class of '79.

Craig, That's good to hear. If I'd been in the area or even close I'd have joined you. Good luck!

Te bareskin running thing is yet another one of these back to nature activities that seems to have become all the rage over the past five years or so. Not that many days ago on here we also had people talking about doing barefoot running too, and you can add swimming into the mix as well with something known as wild swimming that is increasingly popular too, which is simply swimming in rivers and lakes. The latter I feel is far more risky with none of the safety features a regular pool has like lifeguards. I'd definitely consider going on a bareskin shirtless run in the company of others, but as Craig himself says, and I agree, I'd not be brave enough to do it on my own for fear of some of the looks I'd receive, even on a spring afternoon, never mind around midnight on a winters one.

Are women allowed Craig? ;-)

Picking out your national service points Alan, and I'm not sure if the way Ken swam in boarding school has any real relevance in truth to that, but an of uncle of mine was born in 1940 and never did national service despite being 20/21 by 1960/61. I also don't think national service ever lasted 3 years in the 50's by the way, that seems a very long stretch. Surely just two years max.

Ken at least your school was thoughtful enough to allow some actual coverage in swimming once you had become a teenager. I do find it unnecessary that a school would force such a policy on everyone like that at such an age, even if it was with boys you lived with as a boarder and did your daily ablutions etc.

Thanks Craig for your post about bareskin running! Sounds a great idea and something I'd like to give a try some time when I'm in your neck of the woods. How often do you usually meet? Barechested PE in the gym wasn't uncommon when I was at school late 80s/early 90s, but I never experienced it in cross country. Maybe now's the time!

Comment by: Ken on 27th April 2023 at 21:40


Can I just say Ke, n I don't doubt for a moment the voracity of what you have written, but I would like to point out (and I in no way condone it), that if my reading of social history is right, you were forced to join one of the Armed Services for three years at 18, and this state of affairs lasted until 1960, so perhaps there was some justification in treating boys so harshly at that time, to prepare them, but since 1961 no boy has been conscripted, so there has been no excuse for OVER 60 YEARS to be that harsh. Indeed, if older people think the 1960s/70s boys were soft, they need to take a look at some of the more effete teenagers of today. If they join up, their kit bag would have to include make-up and beauty creams to soften their skin, and would insist on their pronouns being respected (them/they) - not all, of course, but some. I still maintain that many teachers are inadequate and they feel big by making kids (especially boys) feel small. It justifies their pathetic and unremarkable lives to themselves. A good example of how they did that was given by Nicky a few days ago, and that was in the 1990s.

Shirtless school cross country lovers of old, listen up.

I am a member of what is known as bareskin running, in a Bareskin Running Club Whatsapp group in Woodbridge in Suffolk which was started up during the last couple of years during the pandemic when we had too much time on our hands. So what is it, well it's simple really, we just run in our bare skin, without any tops. There are currently 15 in our group, ages range from mid 20's to early 60's. We agree a time and meet as a group minimum of three people and go running barechested, or bareskins as it's called, and we continued to do it over the past winter, it's not just a summer pastime. We have even done some midnight runs. I personally love doing it colder. It's not something I'd do on my own, it's good to do in a small group just for companionship and extra confidence, it's a bonding experience and stimulating of both mind and body. You may have done it at school, give it a try as a grown up.

I can't match Ken for his swim class but when I went swimming in PE with the school we'd be sent off in pairs into cubicles to change. I always used to change with the same boy each week and despite it being just him and me he always asked me to turn away and told me not to look while he changed into his swimming trunks so I didn't see him. Now that's what I call extreme shyness.

Thankyou for the reminisces Ken. Nicely said.

My definition of showering properly is using soap and water.

My school showers were plenty of water and not much sight of soap.

Therefore my school clearly failed to teach me how to shower properly, didn't they.

Between 1951 and 1955 I was away at a boarding school for boys. Our late Queen still had not quite come to the throne for a short time yet, Churchill was about to become the Prime Minister again for the second time, that's how long ago it was. It was an age of total deference to any authority figures. I would not have chosen to go to a boarding school myself but I made one or two lifelong friendships and I'm now 83 but with the mind half that age I like to think.

I was minded to write because I have seen so many of you on here take great issue with the upper half of the body being shown off whilst in PE. This was the usual way boys did PE as a boarder at my school too. It didn't appear to be an issue in any way at all. It was something we would do without thinking, because actually we had even more to lose.

The younger boys, of which I was one in 1951 would never wear a costume to swim. We would have completely naked swimming instruction weekly, if my mind is correct until the age of possibly about 13. Once again, there were no complaints, I refer to the deference of the time again. Your tutors were without question and you did what they said. They were always right, or so they wanted you to believe. Personally I would not have chosen to do that but the novelty soon faded and it seemed completely normal within our school community. It was more than 20 years later when one of my lifelong friends from school caught up with me, now a lecturer himself, sometime in the 1970's and I found out how much he deplored our school and our compulsory naked swimming class with something like 20 boys. I did not feel so strongly and accepted it for what it was at the time and place it happened.

The days of a 1950's boarder were so strict, so deferential and so regimented and discipline was everything, there was a cane and a belt and they probably came out too often for things we now regard as silly. I had my fair share. Our personal privacy did not amount to much, we shared it all together, saw so much together, ate together, slept together, washed together, worked together, even wrote to our parents together on Tuesday nights set aside to do so.

PE was fiercely competitive. Team games would foster this the most. Everybody also learnt to swim rather well, I should add. We were encouraged to be active every day. Everybody learnt to do everything rather well. I even did some rowing with a school canoe. I always wanted to have nice strong toned arms and I got them through school PE. I remember we were fed very well in school and I enjoyed all the food and there was often room for seconds inspite of some ongoing shortages and restrictions at the time.

I went in a boy and felt I came out a man. PE helped shape that.

Comment by: Antony on 27th April 2023 at 03:23


I think anybody is entitled to question the motives of teachers like that, though I suspect, in the majority of cases it is a power thing - they get off on giving their orders knowing they can't be disobeyed. It reminds you of those occasional cases that get to court where some minor ranking Army officer has condoned or even encouraged some of those revolting "initiation" ceremonies on new recruits - most of them it is a power trip but a minority do get some sort of sexual pleasure from it, even if it is "just" voyeurism. Certainly our teacher was suspect, and after we left school a friend told me that he had been one of his victims. Of course, with some teachers they get away with it, even if they hide in plain sight because their colleagues choose to keep their grubby secrets quiet. One of our two weird schoolmasters had a fetish for discipline and enjoyed using the cane - even some of his colleagues referred to him as "Thrasher". They clearly suspected his proclivities (this one wasn't a PE teacher. thankfully) At the moment, two proven retired paedophile schoolmasters are fighting deportation from South Africa to return to the UK to face charges. As they are in their 80s, they no doubt hope they will avoid this, but in my view if they had their fun 50 years ago it is time they paid for it, and it shows their extreme cowardice that they are trying so hard not to face court.

There really should have been tighter guidelines throughout the decades - it has only been the last 20/25 years that CRB checks were made on them and nobody knows how many teachers "got away with it"

In your case, Antony it begs the question if the boys had not been "showering properly" what would or could they have done about it?. I think you have every right to question their motives.

What makes a bath a rugby bath, rather than just a bath? It makes me think of those old fashioned things that football teams once had. A very macho thing of old, you'd never get women doing that.

Robbie, I thought America was more prudish about nude culture in general and your comment would surprise me. I think of Europe as far more relaxed and keen about such things.

Someone said to me at work talking about this site that communal showers are very common still in American schools, I have no idea if that is correct but they had worked and lived there for a while with a family, but went on to say that showers at school here in the UK and in continental Europe are no longer common which I think is quite untrue. They may not be as common as in the 60's to 80's heyday of the things I agree, but then it was close to 100% in those days. Nathan you've said your place has them and they are used but does that mean your school insists they must be used or what? I agree though that there should be more PE not less and certainly can't agree you could choose to never do any at school. I think we just sometimes have to face up to our insecurities at times, such as PE brings on, not run away from them.

Alan.

My secondary school was Langley Park Boy's in Beckenham and at the time the PE teachers insistance on standing at the entrance to the mandatory fully nude showers to, "Check the boys were showering properly," was the subject of scorn and disgust among us boys. Looking back the signs that this was a thinly veiled excuse for something much darker have only become ever more obvious as I have become an adult myself - not least the obvious bullying by the sports staff that had a pervasive impact on the culture in the school. It took many forms, physical, mental and psychological.
They had a massive communal rugby bath as well, with showers round the edge. I'm very aware this was not the norm for most kids my age growing up. Nobody really needed a school PE bath but we'd sometimes get one. Claims of urinating in the water for a laugh got made but it was hard to be sure if they had.

The first actual communal shower I took was aged 9 in middle school. That seemed a far more innocent experience, but I was mighty surprised when they got sprung on me at that age, we would just enjoy the water and not having any clothes on seemed to make us quite lively at that tender age. So different to secondary showers.

1970. I'm 12 that year. A funny little story about how you can be a bit too keen to have a school shower sometimes and come a cropper by being too quick about it.

At school whoever got back to the changing room first was often tasked with turning the showers on for everyone else and themselves even if the teacher wasn't present.

I raced back off a gymnasium PE lesson once and as I was first back I went to the closet where we had to switch the water on and get the shower going. I was very soon stripped completely off and straight in, no bother and getting wet through and was joined by a number of other boys too. I came out and some of the class still hadn't got back and the teacher hadn't shown up yet, but I was already drying myself down.

At the exact moment I'd finished drying myself and began dressing the final few from class came through the door with our PE teacher who looked around suspiciously and came straight up to me, saw I looked dry, despite my damp hair, asked if I'd had a shower but didn't believe my answer and accused me of just dipping my head only. He didn't believe the two other boys who vouched for me and so I got sent back in for another shower having undressed again. It was quite funny I suppose. I wasn't even the kind of boy in school who would make excuses to avoid going in the showers after PE so I don't know why he disbelieved me that I'd faked one, but he was one of those PE teachers who was always on the lookout for anyone he thought was trying to avoid a shower. I also got a slapped hand on my bum for my perceived fakery as I was being sent on my way to do it again. All par for the course at that period of time.

I was completely useless at most PE with no co-ordination of any kind but was always a trier and one thing I was quick to find out was you might be quite utterly unskilled at things but they'll like you if you're a trier. The only thing I could do with any competence was run fast in a straight line.

I differ with others here by almost never doing shirtless gym lessons. It was always navy shorts and a white vest or t-shirt, either was allowed but shoes and socks were never permitted for gym PE of any type. I remember having cold feet a lot and also seeing a sort of grey dust collecting over the course of the lessons on the bottom of everyones feet, mine included, that had started quite clean. I'm sure the school gym was only cleaned once a year or something.

The main thrust about this shirtless PE chat is as far as I can make out down to one thing - should boys in school have been made to do it or allowed to decide for themselves. Am I correct or is there more to it?

I have followed the shirtless p.e. debate with interest. I was in high school from 1977 to 1984. We did shirtless sessions in the gym, had compulsory showers and had two decent p.e. teachers. One was older and stricter but both were respected.
I am posting because this afternoon at about 5.50 pm I drove past the local sports centre on the way to the supermarket and observed 12 teenage lads playing football in one of the cages. At least half were shirtless. This appeared to be by their own choice as there did not appear to be any adult supervision. Whilst I accept that some people did not like being forced to remove their good what I observed shows that left to their own devices some young people will choose to remove their tops when it is hit or they are getting two warm. This was on the Northwest coast.

PE should certainly be compulsory on the curriculum until 16 otherwise I'd be looking for a new job.

My Roman Catholic secondary in Greater Manchester is quite traditional for PE. Even showering is still available, and it's used.

There are already far too many overweight children before they even reach secondary school that need PE whether they like it or not.

Replying to Jason,
I agree with you entirely that there should be no opt out for PE under the age of 16 and also no opt out for PE kit rules. Opting out of a vital part of education is not a good way to prepare for adulthood, children need to learn how to be part of a team and team games help to develop vital social skills.

No way should school PE be optional from the day you start at school. I don't even think it should become part of the options process when you are 13 or 14 either just because you aren't so good at things or are getting bashful about what you look like. If school completely gave up on any physical activity for those who didn't want to do it then what message would that send. Some of these young people probably don't do anything at home either. As it is the amount of PE is down at least half compared to only a few years ago. Most of us always had a couple of lessons each week, some had more and for longer too. Along with that I'll add why should there be opt outs on certain kit, or lack of, or basic showering after PE. It sounds more like giving the run of things to the pupils in school and not the staff. I think things were just about right in my youth a few decades back now.