Burnley Grammar School

No way should school PE be optional from the day you start at school. I don't even think it should become part of the options process when you are 13 or 14 either just because you aren't so good at things or are getting bashful about what you look like. If school completely gave up on any physical activity for those who didn't want to do it then what message would that send. Some of these young people probably don't do anything at home either. As it is the amount of PE is down at least half compared to only a few years ago. Most of us always had a couple of lessons each week, some had more and for longer too. Along with that I'll add why should there be opt outs on certain kit, or lack of, or basic showering after PE. It sounds more like giving the run of things to the pupils in school and not the staff. I think things were just about right in my youth a few decades back now.

@ Nick Lucas
Thanks for replying - its just that I know a Nick Lucas who lives in the Dover area and ... its a small world!
On reflection you couldn't be him (or v.v.) - I recall he had a 'rough' time at school and I can't imagine him being 'sporty', although he did take up scuba diving to a fairly high standard in later years.

There's been a lot of v sensible (to me, anyway) posts made in recent times - too many to reply to.

Comment by: Mark on 25th April 2023 at 22:13


Yes, Mark, after the age of 14/15, by that time you know what path you are heading down - those who want to be involved in sports in their working lives will certainly want to continue to persist in it, but if your skills are clearly in a different direction, science or the arts, it makes much more sense to concentrate on the subjects that interest you, and are good at. The subject didn't interest me, but I might have had more respect for it had our PE teacher not been - well, what he was. I have mentioned his proclivities in the past.

One of my PE teachers who took me regularly actually lived about five doors down the road from me. His son was the same age as me and in my form. School was half a mile away from our houses and I'd often see the teacher leave home in the morning and walk past on his walk to school. I always made sure to avoid catching him incase I ended up having to walk with him. He was always carrying a brown Adidas sports bag, probably bringing his own PE kit to school in it every single day.

One one early afternoon he took us out on a cross country and changed the direction so we ended up going past his actual house, and mine, just so he could quickly pop in and grab something. We all had to stop outside for a few moments running on the spot until he came back out.

The other thing was his son sometimes found himself in the changing room after PE with his father there and if that happened he was let off showering while the rest of us had to. I mean, what kind of teenage boy would ever want to do that in front of their father, so I didn't blame him.

All the fifth formers came back off a major cross country running effort in what was about 1978 and I'd never seen so many naked lads all trying to shower and find space as I did that day in school and to make matters worse the chap that took us out for PE got in the thick of it with us. Shock of shocks on top of that was the discovery that many of us were better well endowed than our teacher, poor chap. Never understood why he'd set himself up for that kind of discovery or why a PE teacher thought it was his place to ever share in that situation. Just another day in the life of your usual comprehensive back in the day.

TimH. No, but fairly close actually. Bordon in Hampshire. What made you ask about Dover? I wasn't specific to anything.

I wasn't quite expecting the kind of reaction I received but I stand by it. Jim you are correct in your dissection. I remember being spoken to and seeing others spoken to in the ways I described, that's the point I was making.

I was one of those so called star pupils in PE because I won things but good as it sounds it also brings further problems with ever higher expectations and the stress that comes with it. I was on the school gym team and then on the athletics team which I only did to please my teacher and not myself. But they are still good memories.

I've seen many of your posts Alan, do you think you should have had the right to opt out of PE completely when you were at school?

Or if you accept you had to do it maybe you think you should have the right to opt out of many of the requirements that went along with it, whether it's dropping football or cross country, being able to avoid going shirtless or showering even.

Was it the actual PE or just the teachers that were the deal with you here?

Perhaps PE should be an option from the start. But if it was I can see that the percentage take up by the age of about 12 would be very low indeed wouldn't it, so you just have to make children do PE until 16 for their own good.

At an open evening in November 1994 which I attended at my school with both my parents at the age of 15 we went around the teachers present and stopped at my very own main PE teacher for a short chat in which he told mum he was concerned about my continuing general lack of confidence and self esteem in PE which led to a marvellous answer back from my mum who I had told about his habit of belittling us. Very robustly (she was always direct with people) mum fired back, and I'm obviously slightly paraphrasing here - "oh really, well maybe if you spent a little less time going around calling the boys girls names and picking up on their imperfections he might not have had such a problem in the first place" - and I just remember he couldn't answer and didn't even try. He was the man who took me for PE who I found to remain permanently negative in his use of words and would often refer to some of us with a girls name and pass personal comments when things didn't go right. So my name Nick became Nicola and so on.

From 90 to 95 PE was twice a week. We did lots of skins v shirts team games, mainly basketball, and roughly half the gym time during those years we spent shirtless and the other half wearing a simple vest, mainly white with a badge logo. Taking a PE shower was compulsory until I was in my final year and we shared together as there were no individual stalls or anything like that.

Sorry to have upset some of you. I plead guilty to typing NICK's name wrong (sorry Nick) -a typo that would happen to me be it 4 am or 4 pm - you don't know what time I start my work each day, however he wrote:

"Boys used to be treated far more grown up with less attention paid to their individual feelings I think......It was the same for everyone, I now look back with a certain fondness."

Sounds as if he approves of the one size fits all mentality Thank goodness those days have gone, and the feelings of pupils are taken more into consideration that they were in the good old days for which Nick has such fondness. I was trying to point out some of the low points. If the capital punishment reference was too hard for you, I understand that at one time people had outdoor lavatories, and you might need to take a trip halfway down the garden in the pouring rain or snow in winter. Would Nick or any other nostalgia lovers like that, or approve of that?

Somebody mentions 'looking back with fondness', and gets a blast about the past from Alan. That was a huge overreaction to such a genteel phrase.

May I suggest a very well known book by Dale Carnegie.

A completely irrelevant deflection Alan. I only remember corporal punishment in school, not capital. (Joke) Half past four in the morning doesn't seem the best time to think clearly.

I wonder if you misread the NICK post Alan. It was clearly being written from the alternate perspective of those who told those in school what to do and NOT his own particular view of how to be with people. It was a basic factual truth anyway wasn't it. I didn't see anything about the good old days either. Just expressing a fondness for your schooldays that you might not have felt at the time is a quite common thinking process and it doesn't in any way mean you approve of the wider world as it was so I'm not sure why there was a need to bring hanging into it. All very random Alan and I'm not sure why you felt the need to bite back so hard at a name I don't think I've seen on here before. Chill man.

Tim, what made you think the same poster comes from Dover?

Nick
Do we know each other? You don't live in the Dover area, do you?
T

Nick Lucas on 24th April 2023 at 22:40


The good old days, eh Mick?. The days when you could get hanged for a murder you didn't commit, but if you were REALLY lucky you would get a free pardon sixty years after the event. The Bentley case for example - just one of many. The good old days were not that good, unless viewed through rose tinted glasses.

I will take on board the suggestions surrounding the film I have although I was hoping to place it on a more specific history type of site, so if anyone has any further suggestions of anywhere suitable for an old digitally transferred cine of the kind I described please let me know. Thanks.

Nate, I was more concerned by seeing my father filming me I think, rather than worrying what some girls might be thinking about how I looked. The girls I knew at school were always very nice and well mannered.

Born back in 1947 I was at school in 1959 and of a similar age to those young ones seen in that photograph here from the same year, although I was brought up in Horsham.

The picture shows it much like it was. The teacher would always set himself apart from the boys and look different. While the boys would not be expected to turn up and do gym in much more than the shorts expected of them, and a top in the gym for the class would almost have seemed like an overindulgence if we had been allowed to wear one, there was no chance the teacher in charge of us would ever stoop to being in gym class with us without one on.

I do have some less favourable memories of the school horse however. The gym at school felt quite austere and dowdy, the rules somewhat draconian at times. Teacher, more than one actually, would use the horse as a means to chastise boys in gym on the spot. I personally associate the gym horse as much with PE as I do with corporal punishment. The horse at school was where boys in trouble would have to lean against to be given the slipper in gym or the cane. I was both slippered and caned up against the gym horse so it brings mixed feelings as an object to look at.

(I was caned by the headmaster for smoking and slippered in PE too many times to remember what for)

It may seem quite disgusting now but boys in those days of the late 1950s would often be given a physical reprimand only for failing to achieve for a demanding teacher and this was where I found myself. Our whole class was once up against the gym horse and slippered for inattention, the innocent taking the hit too. I remember that one.

The school shower of the time was never a very appealing prospect. Quite often it was so cold that we would actually shiver or the water would run cold surprisingly fast on us but we would have to stay in. To this day I do not know if this was done purposefully or happened naturally because of the school's system, so my main memory is of cold showers, very unwelcome when you come in from the cold.

I told this to my late father and he called it character building. Well I think I'm of good character so just maybe he was right.

Boys used to be treated far more grown up with less attention paid to their individual feelings I think. Football, don't like it? Tough, get on the pitch and start chasing the ball. Cross country, can't hack a long run, tough, get moving those legs now. Swimming, don't like the water? Tough, get in and get your head under. Goings skins with no top, worried about showing your body? Who cares, get that shirt off now. Showers, you hate them, don't want to be naked in front of everyone? Not interested, get your stuff off and get in them pronto, move it. PE for so many was like a kind of ten to twelve year physical conscription of sorts that forced you into something you'd never have done if left to your own devices. This is my experience in a brief paragraph. It was the same for everyone, I now look back with a certain fondness.

The girls saw us all barechested When we started to strip off outside the teachers made sure the girls had a really good view when we stripped off being just a few feet away from them. It was normal for all the lads were told to strip off for the lesson but occasionally we'd be split into teams of skins vs vests (school colour was pale blue) When we were indoors the teachers ran us into the ground and we all showed sweat usually by mid point and the girls passing by the sports hall just had to look through the outsized windows to see us exercising. It wasn't unusual for a posse to gather and watch if they were on their lunch. They did pay attention to how we looked. When we first starting stripping off It took a good couple of months for the jokes to die down but there were always the occasional comments about how we looked physically. It was all part of school and being honest I did welcome the attention, for me it was a nice change.

Comment by: Steve R on 23rd April 2023 at 00:25

Our school requires that all pupils who do PE must take a shower. Unless a teacher decides otherwise, showering is considered compulsory throughout all school years. Please make sure a towel is supplied as part of the PE kit at all times.

Exemptions only allowed on documented medical grounds supplied by parents for any PE activities and/or showering requirement. A written note is preferable but a telephone call will be accepted initially.




^ This sounds like my school.

But what I always wanted to know was what reason, medical or otherwise, could there be that would mean you were fit and able to take part in PE but were not able to take a shower afterwards. If you're fit to do PE you're fit to shower surely.

I once got my eldest adult sister, she was 22 and I was 13, to ring the school and pretend to be my mum to get me out of a winter cross country PE day and it worked like a dream and I was keen for her to do it again a few weeks later but she told me she wouldn't and I never tried again.

Mark, girls can be absolute rotters among boys when they get to that certain age.

I'll give you a clear example. But it's worth saying although I always shared PE lessons up until the end of primary school with girls my age we were always covered up much the same as each other to look at.

Going up into the seniors after primary we never ever shared any PE lessons with any girls at all but it was where we had our introduction to the so called benefits of shirtless physical work spending our PE lessons stripped off down to the waist every week in the school gym and a huge amount outdoors too.

No problems doing PE like that in the gym, just the boys in there, but outside the girls class could frequently be doing their stuff, netball, hockey or whatever very near the boys and catch plenty of us getting athletic. It was during one of these PE lessons that one of the girls PE teachers came over and asked one of our PE teachers if she could borrow a couple of boys to bring out some benches from the gym. Me and someone else got sent over and took the brunt of more than enough teenage girly comments lifting the benches stripped down shirtless under instruction of their PE teacher. I could have killed my own PE teacher for choosing me to do that and set me up into the lion's den of the girls PE class with comments flying thick and fast about mine and the other one's less than athletic appearance as they saw and mocked us. But that wasn't just it in that moment, there were weeks of comments afterwards too about it that refused to let up. All because I helped the girls PE teacher lift a couple of benches in my boys PE kit without my shirt on. It has been 39 years since and I still remember it and the comments like it was yesterday. Not the worst thing that can ever happen to anybody I know but a clear example for you Mark.

@ Harry: Maybe you could upload the film elsewhere and send us the link either in the field 'Your URL' or just in plain text in the message itself.
Would be great

Why do you think girls would tease boys at school just because they could see what their bodies looked like without the top on. Where you seen like that in school and teased Nate in a PE class or something similar?

I remember the funny scene in Gregory's Girl when the Gordon Sinclair character is in the changing room and the girl comes in on him without his shirt and he laughably puts his fingers over his nipples to hide them from her. No modest shy boy would ever really do that in front of a girl.

Harry, how did you feel about being shirtless around girls? Did they ever tease you or the other boys? Could you upload your footage to YouTube?

I've a digitised copy of an old cine film my father took of me at school in June 1973 doing a physical education routine on the school playground when I was ten years old. There is no sound to it however. In it all of the boys, including myself are barechested in various coloured shorts while some girls are in a pure white unbranded short sleeved polo shirt. It appears to be a cloudy day with a lack of sunlight, some people can be seen watching and are in coats. In it I am walking along a beam about three feet off the ground with my arms held out and also vaulting over other boys who are bent over. It seems to be quite a good snapshot of the kind of PE I did at that age. A pity the forum doesn't have the ability to share digital photographic and film files.

Chris K your mention of your kit requirement in PE made me think about any old school literature I have hanging around the place and I managed to find some myself.

I was at a very normal mixed comprehensive school from 1973 until 1980 aged 11 to 18, in Cambridgeshire before going off to university where I studied modern history, hence why a site like this crossed my interest.

I did PE up to fifth form at age 16 and stopped but could have chosen to do a weekly class in one of the free periods if I had wanted to but chose to do an art course instead at the time. It was PE or artwork, the choice wasn't hard for me to make.

I've got a quite an interesting pamphlet with listings for PE on new intake at age 11 and another for age 14. This is the age 11 one below in part.

Boys PE kit outside varied dependant on time of year.

BOYS PE

BOYS WINTER
Studded football boots.
Black knee length socks.
Black shorts.
Blue sweatshirt.
Blue t-shirt.

BOYS SUMMER.
White plimsolls.
White ankle length socks.
White shorts.
Blue vest.

BOYS GYM
White shorts only.
No shirts or footwear are worn in our gym.

The literature goes on to state;

All boys must do football, rugby and running and reach a minimum competent standard ability in each.

All boys must do athletics and reach a competent standard ability as determined by their PE teacher.


Our school requires that all pupils who do PE must take a shower. Unless a teacher decides otherwise, showering is considered compulsory throughout all school years. Please make sure a towel is supplied as part of the PE kit at all times.

Exemptions only allowed on documented medical grounds supplied by parents for any PE activities and/or showering requirement. A written note is preferable but a telephone call will be accepted initially.


There are a few other bits and pieces and also a couple of black and white photographs including one which looks similar in style to the black and white one that comes with this discussion which was taken in our own school gym, the photo is an all boys one but we did share gym with girls during the first two years at school.

Both boys and girls had to take showers at our school.

I think I just about managed to reach the required standard if my marks were anything to go by although no idea how it was worked out.

Although our summer athletics vest was on the kit listing it did become optional and some people chose to take it off to do PE outside and sometimes our PE teachers told us to take them off.

They really did make us shower every time.

Some people I remember at school could be quite vocal about what they did and didn't like doing in PE in actual lesson content we did. One or two when we got older became quite bold and brazen at simply not showing up for PE at all or deliberately not bringing their PE kit and giving out obviously fake excuses we could all hear. That worked best outside but was doomed to fail in gym when an easy pair of shorts could be found. Could it be the reason some schools kept gym kit to the absolute minimum I wonder, so a failure to turn up to school with your PE kit was easily overcome.

Unlike on here, I don't ever remember many outward expressions of insecurity about having to do PE with no shirts on or anything like that, or worries about sharing communal activities such as the naked shower. We all used to be quite an accepting bunch about our lot didn't we.

I have no complaints about the way school taught me and the rules they made. I learnt quite a lot of life lessons about myself just through doing PE.

"Communal showers are vile things" - quote from Freddy.

They are just the most cost effective and quickest way to clean up a large group of people at the same time. That's all.

Perhaps we are going to see reparations being paid out before much longer for all those schoolchildren who were made to shower in school and had their human rights infringed by teachers failing to respect their personal privacy.

What a BIG ROLL EYES post that is from Freddy here.



You might have chosen to remain muddy Freddy but good luck pulling that one where I was at school. Do boys even get that muddy in PE lessons these days like they used to on the playing fields of old.

I had PE lessons where an entire class would come in absolutely soaked to the skin, all our kit wet through literally to our underwear in the worst of it, pelting rain lashing down, the ground like a mushy bog underfoot, the ball struggling to even bounce on parts of it. The mud could be legendary, our boots, our socks, our legs, shorts and if you dived then our tops too and even faces splattered, even our hair. The mess that entire classes of boys could return from PE in off the school fields is something I would not envisage happening as much nowadays, the parents would probably be complaining about the state of the kit, never mind the state of their little darlings.

But we also had PE lessons where you'd be hard pressed to find a drop of perspiration on anybody. That tended to be tedious lessons in gym where we did a lot of standing around watching certain apparatus. Trampoline springs to mind as a big bore were we spent most of our time leaning on the side of the thing watching members of class going up and down before having our turn.

You mention sending teachers to jail for forcing people like us to shower. But be realistic, what choice would you have if you came off from one of those lessons I first described. How could you possibly just get dressed and carry on your schoolday like that. That would have been far more irresponsible don't you think if you couldn't get cleaned up and what a strange school it would have been that expected you do do some of the things I did, and others, in all weathers and conditions, getting wet, dirty and sweating and not advising that you need to be showered after all that.

By your thinking every one of my seven PE teachers would be doing a combined total of 70 years in jail for just doing their job.

Looks to be him John. Not seen that before, thanks for the link.

This must be your teacher on this database then Tristan.

https://uk-database.org/2014/02/27/kevin-copestake-northwold/

Hi Kev, yes I also had a PE teacher visit presentation at school in 1985 along with I think it was a languages teacher who came along to represent other staff. I can't remember too much about what was said back then but a few days later we took a return trip to his school where the same two people actually showed us around the place. I was quite keen to see the facilities we'd have to use and we got taken to have a stand in the middle of the school sports hall which seemed enormous and slightly intimidating compared to what we were used to. We got taken along to the changing rooms but stayed outside the door and didn't get a look in because at the time there seemed to be a class using them. Our guide knocked and another PE teacher came out to say hello knowing we were all waiting outside the door and as he did so we heard the sound of running water, someone said something like what's that sound and he said we couldn't go in because the boys were having a shower. Someone in our group said 'will we have to do that' and he said you'll need to by the time you've finished PE at this school. He went back inside and left us to our PE teacher guide who told us not to worry about things like that. We then went off to the gymnasium itself and sat around talking about what sports we all liked with him. It was just boys as the girls had gone off separate with the languages teacher for their guided tour, I'm not sure why we needed to be separate like that, we all saw mostly the same things. I remember getting home and being asked about the guided tour and about what I'd seen and more or less saying I'd seen nothing much. But a few things did stick in my mind from our little tour around, the size of the place, the art room facilities that were awesome, a gruff looking teacher we passed in a corridor who looked like he was scowling at us as we passed him and the changing room door hello we had from the other teacher which got me wondering what it would be like having showers in school and I wished I could have had a quick look in to see beforehand what it looked like doing so.