Burnley Grammar School

Comment by: Russ on 27th June 2025 at 22:59




"....Alan, thankyou for the reply earlier this week. Poor school buildings are no excuse for poor school teachers. For peaceable boys to be in such 'violent' schools must have been just grim........"

Thanks Russ. As I have got older, I can understand, to some extent, the attitude of our old teachers (except in two cases), they were older men, they saw newer and better schools in our area, and because ours had such a poor reputation and a very low budget, I suspect that if they tried for advancement elsewhere, their applications went to then back of the queue, so they felt embittered and took it out on us - most of them it was just verbal aggression and occasional flashes of anger - throwing the board eraser etc., and I suspect they really did feel defeated, and acted accordingly. It didn't feel that way at the time!, but most of us were well behaved and did our best, but we resented them and they resented us. It wouldn't have been my way, I played trumpet in some real dumps, but I put as much into my playing as I would have done at some upmarket venue, but I was much younger than they were. I felt then, as I do now, that all school students should be treated with respect and consideration, then they will respond in kind. I find it interesting that since schools, or some schools, still maintain rigid discipline till an increased age, pupil violence, truancy and disruption seems to be much higher.

Mark, Ronnie

My mistake - I meant to put quotation marks in, but I was composing my post on my phone, and with such a small screen it's a lot less convenient than on my computer.

Comment by: Andy on 27th June 2025 at 20:11

Long time no hear, Andrew!

If you engage in a public forum, as Tony chose to do, who says he is in the very profession that this forum is about, I don't think it unreasonable that you ask them to enlarge on their pronouncements, and that is all I am doing. Of course, if he chooses not to answer that is his prerogative. With all due respect, I don't think it appropriate that you volunteer to speak for him.

As adults we no longer have to be obsequious to schoolteachers and be unquestioning - don't you agree?

It's a discussion Andy. People can choose to respond or not, their choice.

Alan, thankyou for the reply earlier this week. Poor school buildings are no excuse for poor school teachers. For peaceable boys to be in such 'violent' schools must have been just grim, and you didn't even have your own school playing field for PE and had to borrow the nearby park in your area, and went there shirtless too. It never rained but it poured for you didn't it. I did compulsory full PE class shirtless cross country a number of times outside of school itself but that's not quite the same as a regular lesson taken elsewhere entirely.

Why the hell does any school teacher have to justify themselves to you Alan? How about you start by getting his damned name right too.

Keep up those shirtless gym lessons a soapy showers Anthony Hayman, you are doing the right thing even if it upsets the sensitivities of a tiny minority. It was always thus. Some of us just grew up faster.

Comment by: Ronnie on 26th June 2025 at 21:00
"Chris G, sorry about that, I see what I did now. I read everything and didn't notice part of it was where you were quoting Mary. I read that a couple of times and didn't notice."


When people are responding to a specific comment and paste it within their own it might be a good idea if it's placed in quotation marks, it does make it easier to notice whether it is an original comment or a response to something.



Comment by: Eddie on 26th June 2025 at 16:18
"MY INDOOR PHYSICAL EDUCATION YEARS.....1967 - 1979.
First infants school aged 4 - 8....BARE CHEST, BARE FEET, SHORTS.
Junior Middle, aged 8 - 11....BARE CHEST, BARE FEET, SHORTS.
Secondary Comprehensive, aged 11 - 16....BARE CHEST, PLIMSOLLS, SHORTS."


12 years of shirtless PE at school. It's fair to say you must have been very used to it long before you reached secondary school. At the young age you started I think no children would even care or think of it as anything and hardly any children at 4 or 5 years old are self conscious and think about what they look like without clothes on. It's a shame we all get older and pick up hang ups along the way, for whatever reason some are more prone to this than others.


Comment by: Neil on 25th June 2025 at 14:31
"That's a really good and thorough explanation of why the use of school showers after PE lessons was and is still in some places deemed necessary Anthony."


I have to reluctantly agree with you. Persuasive for sure from Anthony. It would have been quite nice to have had a PE teacher say those things to my class when I began secondary school and had to shower after PE, but all they did was set them going and tell you to get in them rather rapidly and warn anyone against trying not to. A nice explanation such as that would have felt more comforting I think and educated us to why we had to do it and the benefits it would bring.

Comment by: Anthony Hayman on 26th June 2025 at 20:49




".......I have never looked at bare chested PE as a negative. Adolescent boys are always very body aware, the modern media gives many of them unrealistic expectations about what is normal. Some boys are joining gyms at very young ages now to try and achieve what they see elsewhere beyond the school PE lesson."

Tony, I wonder if you have read many of the comments on here from men who were forced to go through the regime you inflict, forty or fifty years ago?. You will see how many were uncomfortable with it and remember it well into adulthood. Has it not crossed your mind that many boys today might feel just the same way? - especially if they happen to be homosexual and feel uncomfortable around naked men or boys.

You didn't answer my question: as you insist all boys shower after lessons, what would be the harm in allowing them to wear a tee shirt during lessons if they wished to do that?. Any of this amazing amount of sweat you suggest occurs in your lessons would be dealt with in the shower, and the offending tee shirts could go in with the Persil with all the other washing.

There is, in my opinion, far too much leeway given to the whims of P.E. teachers - just a few weeks ago we had a P.E. teacher on here who was quite relaxed about what boys wore in his gym, so I can;t see why they can't all be like that. Presumably he gets satisfactory results, I get the impression your school might be a private one or a grammar - with the crests on shorts and all that it sounds a bit high end. People who can afford to buy their sons shorts with crests on are clearly not on the bread line, so could afford a couple of tee shirts, if you are going to use expense as a get out. You might not regard bare chested P.E as a negative, but you can be sure some of your pupils do, even if they don't tell you so.

Chris G, sorry about that, I see what I did now. I read everything and didn't notice part of it was where you were quoting Mary. I read that a couple of times and didn't notice.

Simon W, how sad that you would go to the lengths of avoiding a birthday party invite just because there would be a pool there you didn't want to go in. Isn't it a shame that kids can't be honest with each other even if they are good friends.

I shower every day after work to the person who asked.

Physical education is about so many things, a healthy body, yes, but also a healthy mind too. Both go together. I find that self confidence grows best with the approach we foster, plus a good grounding in teamwork during PE as well as individual attainment.

I see no reason at all why a shower should not be undertaken or expected after a vigorous PE lesson. Generations of children have done this. Cleanliness is important and just being at school does not mean it should be overlooked, see my previous comment. Hot water even for a few moments is an excellent muscle soother after an hour of activity as well, so it's not just about being cleaned up.

I have never looked at bare chested PE as a negative. Adolescent boys are always very body aware, the modern media gives many of them unrealistic expectations about what is normal. Some boys are joining gyms at very young ages now to try and achieve what they see elsewhere beyond the school PE lesson.

MY INDOOR PHYSICAL EDUCATION YEARS.....1967 - 1979.

First infants school aged 4 - 8....BARE CHEST, BARE FEET, SHORTS.

Junior Middle, aged 8 - 11....BARE CHEST, BARE FEET, SHORTS.

Secondary Comprehensive, aged 11 - 16....BARE CHEST, PLIMSOLLS, SHORTS.


There's a common theme here isn't there!

The universality of it at this time is an interesting thing. Like you Simon I did a variety of sports days at all three schools without so much as a thread of fabric covering my upper body. I didn't mind, maybe others did, who knows.

Yes it is quite eye opening casting the mind back to notice if you landed up at certain schools you could end up going through your whole school time doing physical education inside various schools and none let you as a boy sling a top on once in a while. But they got me young so it was second nature to me, as a boy PE meant to me that I never wore a top and remained a bare chest and I completely accepted this was something I had to do.


Even outside we went shirtless from time to time, except in junior middle where I seem to recall we could wear a normal T-shirt and did so.

Swimming at school was considered a luxury and restricted to a few weeks per year only.

Comment by: Ronnie on 25th June 2025 at 20:03

I previously assumed you were a male Chris G.

I am! Don't know what might have made you think otherwise.

if you read back through my posting history you will see enough evidence of that. My secondary school PE CV went something like:

Years 1 - 2: Shorts, tops (vests or t-shirts or whatever)
Years 3 - 5: Shorts, bare chests (introduced with not very much notice, but generally received favourably.
Change of school
Years 6 - 8: navy rugby shorts, uniform white polo necked t-shirts (campaigns to permit voluntary topless repeatedly dismissed)

Note, these are are the years of my secondary education, not the currently used Year numbers ranging from R to 13.

Mary, you said the following at the end of your comment,

"I suppose that some men's feelings about shirtless PE might have evolved with hindsight even if they were OK with it when they were boys? I find it interesting how differently something can be remembered depending on how much time has passed."

What exactly do you mean by this? You seem to be saying that there might be people on here who have rewritten their school history and who are now claiming to be bothered by something that they were not at the time. Well let me put you right.

Everything you described in your original comment a few days ago applied to me, almost perfectly infact. I was at school a touch before you, my comprehensive school was in the late seventies, I actually left in 1980. In our school gym for PE our boys class was only allowed to put on a pair of white shorts for the lesson. No tops, no trainers, no socks, not even our pants, it was the very basic classic shirtless & barefooted look without underwear, and I didn't enjoy the look one bit when it first hit me when I was twelve years of age. It was such an incredible sense of vulnerability, I didn't like my body much at that age anyway.

One of my mates had a pool party for his August birthday in the late seventies and I didn't go to avoid a number of girls in class he told me he had invited. This was a huge rubber inflatable back garden pool. He was very upset but I just pretended I'd forgotten as it was in the middle of August out of school time without us seeing each other as much as normal. I wanted to go but nothing would make me go when I knew certain girls would be there, ones I wasn't that friendly with in class and that I would be expected to join in and bring the trunks and get in the water. I knew if I went I would not be able to sit it out and stay dry, that in itself would be almost as bad. I simply could not volunteer to take my shirt off like that, even with my friends from class who we already shared PE with that way anyway. That's the difference between being made to do things and choosing to do them. So I missed what was probably a great party afternoon with friends and upset a close one in the process and lied about my no show.

I used to get really very nervous anticipating shirtless PE lessons at school to the point I sometimes felt slightly nauseous with a queasy stomach, so the thought of it actually gave me a real physical reaction at times. I also had this ever present fear that they might allow girls to join us and this fear lasted about a month into school before it became reality one afternoon, the girls shared the boys gym once a month. I've no idea if anyone knew what I really felt about it because I said nothing while often cringing inside from complete embarrassment when the girls joined us.

Now Mary you mentioned bantering with boys. What did you mean by this, what kind of things were you actually saying? I'm pleased someone else has picked up and quoted somebody else's comment about that, well done to them for that. In my case the banter, as you call it, didn't happen in the PE lesson, the teachers were too strict to allow much fooling about, but it came after PE, at break or even in other lessons when girls said things, not about me directly but about other boys or generally about us.

Obviously this all wore off after a while and things settled down into the ways of the school. My first six to nine months at secondary school were difficult and a large part of that difficulty arose around the subject of PE for some of the reasons I've given.

We also went and did PE outside without tops on from about April to July quite a lot even though we had athletics vests for that. I never liked sports day at school every summer, it was a recipe for potential humiliation in front of everyone in your life at that moment, your class, your teachers and if they came your family. I always wanted my family to stay away, the one year they didn't come I was somewhat relieved by that. We could at least wear our athletics vests for sports day, just white vests with a blue edging around the neck and arms but one year when I was I think fourteen or fifteen it was a hot summers day with blazing sunshine and our PE teacher made a snap decision that we needed to keep ourselves as cool as possible and told us all not to wear vests and remain shirtless, which had the effect of putting that "fear or flight" response through my veins which is a well known stress response to situations you want to avoid, almost like panic, which is not too strong a word actually. It really is what some boys were like at school Mary, honestly, and yes it may be an irrational reaction to a situation but it's fact for many.

I had a similar reaction on joining secondary school when showers became a thing. I'd do my utmost to avoid the things until it just became impossible but I remember lots of boys at school being just the same and not liking a PE teacher forcing you to strip naked the moment you came back from the PE lesson and trying to avoid them and hope the teacher hadn't noticed they hadn't showered, much of the time they did notice though, they had keen eyesight these PE teachers. So I developed a coping mechanism to get on with it the best I could.

One thing I used to do before PE was go and sit in the toilets, shut the door and do some deep breathing to myself and say quietly in my head, "Calm, collected, confident" and hope that helped.

My favourite sport was cricket but we did almost none, outside it seemed to be down to the personal tastes of the PE teacher in charge what we did much of the time and they didn't ask for any feedback about what any of us might actually like to do. Everything about PE was slanted in favour of a certain few predictable things to the exclusion of all the rest.

Comment by: Sally-Ann on 25th June 2025 at 20:40
'One of my favourite films at that time was Gregory's Girl and there's a bit in that film where the character Gregory played by John Gordon Sinclair is in the changing room when Dorothy, played by Dee Hepburn walks in on him with no shirt on and he self consciously sticks his fingers over his nipples quite quickly to preserve a bit of his modesty. It's slightly comic I know and I did laugh at that at the time in the cinema with a couple of girlfriends I went to see it with in about 1981 by which time I was a secondary school girl and noticing boys a lot, you would look at literally any boy without a top on, whatever he looked like.'



Hello Sally-Ann, I've never seen that film although it's been on TV so many times down the years and I even knew that scene you picked up on. I thought I would see if it was online and watch it, which I did late last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. I could only find a full version with subtitles though. For anyone who doesn't know what you are talking about here it is;

https://youtu.be/hkS6iCp9QIo?feature=shared&t=1638


Our school would not only never have let a girl play on a boys football team but they would not have let a girl play football at all, but I never saw any girls who looked like they had the slightest interest in doing so anyway, although I think women's football has been hyped up more than it's genuine popularity as ITV seems to push it onto TV pretending it has a mass audience when it doesn't.

Comment by: Ronnie on 25th June 2025 at 20:03

"....Your school sounds rotten to the core Alan. Have any ex-pupils set up any online chats with memories of that school, such as Facebook groups or similar places to recall past events, people and places. My school has one and many schools do seem to have, with associated photos of teachers or the school as well as former pupils"

Towards the end of Friends Reunited, Ronnie, I checked the site and there was never a trace, which I supposed summed up what we thought about the place, and all those who went before us (we were the last of them), I did though keep in touch with a few of my friends. My best mate who I met on our first day at school died just after Xmas in 2022, he had had it worse than me at school as he had been a bit tubby. Another died in 2020 an early casualty of Covid, a third, the one who was frankly groomed and interfered with by our vile P.E. teacher, became alcoholic - I can't say that was the cause, but I suspect it played a part, quite a large part, as he wasn't that way inclined. Essentially he was good at football and our teacher gave him "extra tuition" outside school. Sadly I haven't seen or heard of him for some years now .

The building, to answer somebody earlier, whose name escapes me, was constructed in 1898, so was a prime example of late Victorian building. It was inadequate for normal purposes today, but probably not that unusual in a poor part of London at that time. Most of the area was redeveloped, the good and the bad in the early 1990s,, and though none of the lads were "problem kids" - no knives or drug users - we were, I think, considered low achievers, based on our junior schools, therefore the dump was "good enough" for us. I have no ill will about that, nor did any of my friends as I recall. we just got on with it. The thing that really bugged me was the two pervert teachers. I don't think it ever occurred to the authorities that the teachers might have been as much of the problem as the pupils. The junior school staff did not bully like the secondary teachers, but they were dull, stolid and unimaginative. You have to stimulate young minds, they didn't have the gift. The highspot of our week was a Radio 4 schools programme on Thursday afternoons.

For those who thought "Anthony's" explanation for his whims reasonable, (i.e. Mark and Neil) I would just say, as I did to him directly, that since he insists on showers after every lesson, there is no reason at all why he cannot allow tops to be worn. Too many schools are too indulgent in catering to the whims of P.E. teachers, (especially), on ego trips. I would also add that very few eleven year olds sweat as profusely as he makes out, to justify his policy.

I wonder if Mark and Neil would care to comment, because you can be fairly sure "sir" won't.

Hi Mary,

Wow. Thank Christ I didn't go to your school. I would have been horrified to be thrown into a mixed class at that age half-naked. Even if none of the boys you knew truly felt bad about it it was still sexist, discriminatory and just plain wrong. But through a lifetime I have come to see how it is always, always boys and men on the sharp end of this kind of gender discrimination.

Did any of you girls ever question that reason for the PE kit disparity? You must have been curious about it.

And what was the justification for the bare feet thing? Given that you girls were allowed footwear? Health and safety - and broken glass - were just as big issues in the early '90s as they are today. And in the gym, where the girls were allowed trainers, well there was no justification at all.

'What I find interesting is that, despite this strict dress code, the boys I was in lessons with didn’t seem remotely bothered. If anything, most seemed confident and completely at ease. '

At my school, if anything, it was the other way round. It was the girls who had to wear those notorious gym knickers that were standard for the time, while we boys always got to wear tops and footwear. They always seemed to take it in their stride and always seemed to be laughing and joking. None of the girls seemed to mind it but I bet some of them absolutely did. It will have been the same with the boys you knew. Some of them had no inhibitions. Others were able to take the embarrassment of it in their stride. Others, like me, would have hated it but they wouldn't have shown their discomfort.

Girls are raised having their feelings cherished and nurtured while boys are still taught to disregard theirs. If as a boy you voice discomfort or vulnerability you are breaking the code and letting the side down, and you will not receive the support of your male classmates.

'In fact, it appeared to me that the boys were simply used to being treated that way. None of them ever questioned it, and there was never any fuss about what they had to wear – or not wear. It was as if that was just how things were, and they accepted it without a second thought.'

Of course they didn't question it! They would have been punished. You can trawl back through the recent posts and here and read what happened to boys who dared to challenge their schools' PE practices. It emphatically did not mean they were happy about it!

You have answered your own question. We all had to accept experiences we didn't want to at secondary school.

Mary, if those boys you remember had been allowed football shirts and trackie bottoms and trainers while you girls had to wear crop-vests and gym knickers and go barefoot . . . how do you think that might have made you feel? Such minimal kit would have been very comfortable and practical, after all.

The fact that so many men here have expressed genuine discomfort and humiliation about topless PE is surely utterly self-evident. The reluctance from so many female posters here to accept that boys had feeling of discomfort is actually pretty disconcerting.

What a shame that your PE teachers didn't think that comfort and practicality might have benefited your male classmates as well.

Good to see a lot more female input to mix it up a bit more from just the men.

Sally-Ann, isn't that amusing, they were keen in PE to make sure you didn't reveal too much while the boys were expected to reveal the lot up top. Boys bellies okay, girls not. It makes you wonder why a school that held that type of attitude didn't ask boys to stick a vest or T-shirt on doesn't it. You have to love schools when it comes to odd rules and getting tape measures out on clothing. The same happened at ours with girls uniform skirt lengths when some girls tried it on with shorter ones.

I think many of the gentlemen on here who went to school in past decades have every right to feel slightly aggrieved if the teacher was forcing them to strip down well below their personal comfort level and not letting them wear a top in reasonable circumstances. In some ways girls like myself had the opposite problem.

It's funny really, I remember sharing the middle school PE classes in the seventies with lots of boys in my class who never seemed to have tops on but it barely registered as anything anyone thought about as far as I know. But I do know that when I was in senior school we came across boys without tops with bare bodies sometimes in parts of PE where girls and boys mingled around each other and you could tell who the awkward boys were quite easily by that age if you could read reactions well.

One of my favourite films at that time was Gregory's Girl and there's a bit in that film where the character Gregory played by John Gordon Sinclair is in the changing room when Dorothy, played by Dee Hepburn walks in on him with no shirt on and he self consciously sticks his fingers over his nipples quite quickly to preserve a bit of his modesty. It's slightly comic I know and I did laugh at that at the time in the cinema with a couple of girlfriends I went to see it with in about 1981 by which time I was a secondary school girl and noticing boys a lot, you would look at literally any boy without a top on, whatever he looked like.

But here's the rub, whilst the boys in my school were clearly being told to strip down quite basic to nothing but their bare skin on top, girls for example could not do the equivalent of turning up in something like a bikini bra or crop top, just like Mary says here. We had to wear a proper fully covered short sleeved top, either a t-shirt of polo top, and a bare midriff exposing our belly buttons and lower tummy's was never allowed, while the boys at school were being told to have the full bare chest upper body, belly button and nipples out, our navels were prohibited!

There was no difference when it came to showers, girls just like the boys had to do it, together in a group, completely naked under supervision, so on that there was a level playing field with boys at school. Whilst many girls disliked being made to shower enormously, I was rather more relaxed about it. I used to wonder what the boys all looked like in their shower while we were doing ours.

Many boys clearly were less than keen for that but had to, whilst there were girls like me at school who would have jumped at the chance to wear a bra style crop top and show a bit more than we were allowed to. Even our shorts had to be a certain length down our thigh and were sometimes measured if it looked like they were too high up.

I previously assumed you were a male Chris G.

Your school sounds rotten to the core Alan. Have any ex-pupils set up any online chats with memories of that school, such as Facebook groups or similar places to recall past events, people and places. My school has one and many schools do seem to have, with associated photos of teachers or the school as well as former pupils.

to Chris G:
No, absolutely not. We girls were not allowed to bare more skin than necessary, and honestly, it didn’t even cross our minds to try stripping down in an equivalent way. We were brought up to be decent – there were clear expectations about modesty, and stepping outside those boundaries would have felt both inappropriate and attention-seeking. Crop-tops or sports bras? That would have been unthinkable in our context, even if someone had been bold enough. The flexibility we had was in terms of comfort and practicality – being allowed to wear proper trainers or choosing between T-shirts and tracksuit bottoms – but it certainly didn’t extend to revealing more.

Comment by Mary 24th June

And the rule for boys never changed: they always had to be shirtless, wearing only plain white shorts, regardless of their age. Even for outdoor lessons, they weren’t allowed any footwear – just white shorts, bare feet, and a bare chest.

Meanwhile, we girls had far more flexibility: we could wear T-shirts, tracksuit bottoms or shorts, and proper trainers.

Mary, might that flexibility have extended to less-covering items such as crop-tops, sports bras or even ordinary everyday bras, if someone had been bold enough to push the envelope??

Outside toilets at school Alan, barely legal surely, what year did you leave school, sometime in the 1880's.

No school sports day at a secondary school, that's really poor. There was a PE based sports day every single summer I was at school from the time I started until I left. Even if you didn't like PE some of them could be good fun, especially in my primary school where we even used to do things not strictly associated with PE as such, like throwing tiny beanbags at balanced tin cans or doing things with multi coloured hoops, as well as traditional things like running races.

Were there a lot of members of the public viewing your PE in the public park there then Alan? I can't believe they made you go there in bare chests too, technically out of the school boundary.

I get what people such as Anthony are saying and he has a good explanation that is hard to argue with in the way it was put.

That's a really good and thorough explanation of why the use of school showers after PE lessons was and is still in some places deemed necessary Anthony.

Comment by: Anthony Hayman on 25th June 2025 at 03:30


You do realise, Anthony, that verrucas can often be picked up when bare feet are common, such as in swimming pools?

As for the rest, as you insist they shower anyway, what would be the harm in letting them wear tops?. If the parents are well off, you could even have your little crest placed on them I wonder if the teachers are as clean as they expect their pupils to be? - are you all showering after a hectic day at school?

Comment by: Russ on 24th June 2025 at 21:29

".......I'm really surprised you were getting corporal punishment in the form of the cane so much because you've already stated you were at school during the 1980's haven't you. Did they consider you disruptive, and did many others you knew in your class/year receive corporal punishment for things? That seems very harsh for simple truancy and it doesn't sound like it worked anyway. During the earlier end of the 1970's such punishment didn't seem to feature much, it was threatened but you would have had to be a serious troublemaker or do something massive to find yourself facing a cane in our school, so I'm surprised years later than me and almost up to abolition you received it for just truanting off lessons. A sensible school would absolutely be trying to find out why you were doing it and wanting to know, especially if you were doing it at the same time each week.

Was the park you mentioned your school's makeshift playing fields and where you did PE lessons because your school didn't have its own land in an urban London area, I think you mentioned something along those lines before didn't you. School's without playing fields, not good. So where did you do your school sports day then, in the local park! Don't tell me they made you go and do PE down the local park all shirtless, was that why you were avoiding it. One thing I can't argue over was the magnificence of our school playing fields which were substantial with their very own groundsman, not just a caretaker......."

Ross, I am afraid at our school, violence was a part of life, both from pupils and teachers. We had one lad, by the name of David Cooper, who spent a couple of years at borstal or approved school, or whatever establishment they used at the time, and by the time he was 21 was serving a stretch in prison for GBH. He, like most of us, was caned at school at one time or another, and I can say in all seriousness that never a day went past when whiteboard erasers were not whizzing through the air, or a ruler put across the knuckles, or a slipper or cane wasn't used for some transgression. Truancy was considered the most heinous of offences, next to theft. Corporal punishment existed till the June of the year I left (in July), because there was starting to be a condemnation in the press of the practice, and public opinion .was turning against it in a big way.

Please don't think I am being condescending - I really don't mean to be - but I think lads and men that had schools like your own with groundsmen, cannot understand what schools like ours were like - there was nothing temporary about the park - it was the way it had been done for years, since it's inception, the frontage of the school (built in the 1890s) , which was divided from the pavement with green metal fences, like those used in municipal parks, was merely concrete, and that served as a playground and an assembly point had a fire broken out (and I often wished it had). The park was all there was by way of outside facilities, and we were lucky in that we didn't have sports days - the general public got enough amusement out of us on Wednesdays. P.E. was a punishment at our school, not an "enjoyable" experience, even for the more sports minded lads, It was a miserable disgusting situation, but our school had been scheduled for demolition for many years before I went there - so little or no money was spent on it. There were outdoor lavatories, for example, which you avoided like the plague if you had any sense, and the caretaker might put a drop of Jeyes Fluid down them every Monday, whether he thought it needed it or not, but that was about all. I can honestly say I never ventured into either of the two W.C. cubicles in all the years I was there. They were near the car park at the back, the facilities were appalling for everyone, It didn't help that the council in the area was controlled by the same party for ever, with the same old hangers on keeping it propped up, and they were more interested in the more successful schools. Somebody wrote on here recently that he had written to his sons school and they just wrote back and told him they would not respond to any further communications. That was the attitude of our school. Of course, this was all pre-internet, and I sincerely hope that these days they would be named and shamed with alacrity.

I can and do accept if you go to a school that was nearly a hundred years old in a poor, decrepit, run down town, you have to accept limitations, but what I can't and don't accept is the piss poor teachers we had to put up with, two of whom, as I have said before were definite perverts, however infirm our headmaster was, he should have had more control over his staff - but his deputy was even worse. I freely admit for years after I left I had nightmares about the place. Of course, like all of usmon here, we just got on with it,and never went home and complained. It is over 40 years ago now - even the Tesco store that replaced it when it was levelled in the late 1980s looks a bit down at heel now, but then again so many parts of London seems to be covered in grime, even today.



Comment by: Mark on 24th June 2025 at 22:24



"......Alan, did your PE lesson take place in the (public?) park and was that shirtless?....."

Yes I am afraid so Mark, nearly every Wednesday afternoon. It was humiliating, boring and miserable. The only non shirtless Wednesdays were football weeks, which I could tolerate even though I loathed the game. We knew on Tuesday afternoon (one of the indoor lessons) whether or not it was football,next day, so I could make myself scarce on non football days, which were what were described as "general exercise days" mainly running on the spot, running round the park etc

Okay, let me lay my cards straight on the table. I'm a physical education teacher since 2001.

My view on showering, which we continue to compel at our school and for good reasons which I will explain.

Areas such as the feet, the groin, and the underarms are particularly prone to bacterial and fungal growth, making it vital to cleanse thoroughly after exercise of the type done in school P.E lessons. Skipping a quick soapy shower even for just a few hours after vigorous physical activity can result in rashes, athlete's foot, and other skin problems, especially in the young. Moreover, maintaining personal hygiene after physical activity can significantly boost self-confidence, and it is especially important for adolescent boys to become more aware of their appearance and body image and this is best done with exposure of themselves and to each other, and that is why our school insists that boys come to their gym classes with bare chests, school shorts with the crest on them and we prefer bare feet during gym as a rule because it is far healthier and reduces sweat there. Exceptions to this are not generally permitted, we expect the same from everyone.

In addition to hygiene and skin health, immediately showering in warm water after physical activity also aids in muscle recovery and relaxation and can help soothe tired muscles, improve circulation, and reduce the risk of soreness or stiffness after intense school P.E sessions.

What I've just said here is what I say to newcomers to school when they start and we introduce them to P.E and our expectations from them, so they are all given a clear explanation of why things happen and are required in the way they are.

My all boys grammar school changing room had the places to sit, hook up your gear and the communal showers, but also had a row of urinals along a wall too, open to all, and which I always struggled to use, silly as that might sound. I could jump in the showers after PE quite easily but if I wanted a pee I couldn't do it in front of anyone else, yet some boys used to be in our changing room and walk up to the urinals hanging off the wall and stand in front of them naked and not even touch their penis and begin urinating away. I always had to find a proper toilet cubicle to have a private pee to myself.

I certainly cannot imagine where you ever got the idea that all boys are easy going over taking their shirts off in childhood Hilary. I always found my own school gym asking me to do this a rather difficult ask when it first started happening and it took a long time for me to grow into actually thinking nothing of it and clearly some others never did grow into it. I don't think most of us who are self conscious enjoy our traits it gives us, some last a lifetime, I was at school in 1961 until 1967 and still cannot easily use a public open urinal if others are present but I could probably just about manage a communal shower if the need arose even at my age now.

I was given the belt as corporal punishment for not bringing the correct PE kit to school in the late sixties, on top of doing it in my underpants. I was also given the belt for attempted shower evasion, something given out a lot where I went. Most boys in my class were belted for something and PE gave many good reasons to be belted, hands or backside, or sometimes both.

Cheers Terry for the acknowledgement of my post.

You're bang on. Half our run was suburban streets with uneven pavement along the way, which had this knack of making you strip up and fall flat on your face very easily if you were not careful with a bit of slab sticking out catching you. If you did fall you had no protection and I grazed an elbow and wrist with a trip once. The knees just about managed to stay untouched.

My main man PE teacher was a shirtless PE fanatic that's for sure - other people's shirtless, not his own. As for the car he would drive off, we used to hope he had a prang on the way. A couple of his tyres got let down one day, the culprit was never caught but it was strongly suspected it was something to do with preventing him doing his cross country drive ahead of us, it was on the same day it happened. Nobody ever admitted anything though. I still remember the car he drove, a light blue Austin Maxi, a very teacher of the 70s kind of motor.

Mary, can you exemplify the "light-hearted banter about the boys’ physiques" you reminisced engaging in?

Danny C's old comment already provided the other perspective on banter: "fun and especially the term "banter" can actually mean bullying, intimidation, teasing and just all round unpleasantness. It's not always just meaning a bit of good fun and jesting in good humour, far from it. The very word "banter" is that oh so affable sounding word that caught bullies just love to use as their defence time and again. When Louise mentioned the word "banter" I related it strongly as a negative and far from good natured word from a girl I was at school with when sharing PE and drama classes with her in a barechested state that enabled her to pass highly personal comment and innuendo that were far from fun or "banter" to me. We made contact again at 40 for the first time since 16 and I brought her behaviour up at one point and she literally didn't even have any concept of the way her behaviour impacted others like me and the old "banter" defence got wheeled out. My only regret is that I didn't have the confidence at the time to fire the right words back with some quick thinking at the time rather than allow myself to get flustered and clearly red faced which led to more "banter".

Mary, nice of you to contribute your interesting perspective.

You are right about girls having more freedom of expression in clothing. It's always more limited for boys, and men for that matter. At school in secondary I was one of those classes of gym boys only allowed our navy shorts, the bare chest and feet, mainly with other boys only but not always, girls did intrude now and again with us, and wore a variety of tops, shorts and even tiny mini skirts. At work I always had to wear a certain look, dark trousers, a shirt, a tie and even my socks had to be plain and dark and not light colours or striped even though they couldn't be seen much, while the women could wear a variety of outfits to show off their personalities, men just constrained as adults, just like at school in PE.

Every school and class is different. Maybe you were a bunch of great girls, or just a class that gelled together well, or had a great few teachers who put you all at ease. So many factors make the outcome. I knew others in class who disliked PE done in a mandatory bare chest for sure, it was no secret but nobody would think to say a word to the PE teacher, it wouldn't have changed much I think anyway, anymore than anyone who tried to get out of a shower ever succeeded in that, they didn't.

I suppose if you've ever read about suicide stories and friends and family say the person didn't give any clue or suggestion about what they went and did and they were all deeply shocked, well it's the same to a less serious extent with this subject I think. Men on here have come and said they managed to hide their feelings about all kinds in school, paradoxically is actually easy I think to pass off as alright about something you are not okay about, certainly when you've done it a few times, and many men on here did this for years.

Mary, if you look back on here about a year ago there was a modern day young current teacher of PE from a school whose name I've forgotten named Nathan who takes PE lessons nowadays with boys in bare chests sometimes and he did a poll and found out that a quarter of his boys were not keen or disliked doing PE that way, which sounded about right to me. Take it from me, I'm sure your own school was broadly similar, I'd bet money on it.

You are right though, in those days going back when people like you and me were in school, like most of the others here, we did accept it as the way it was and how it was for boys, but it didn't mean we had to like it. Also, many on here have said that being mandatory shirtless in the school gym felt completely different to being in your bare chest for the swimming lessons, and I agree, one of those weird quirks.

One thing I am surprised about is how there are not as many pro-shirtless PE guys on here nowadays, other than a few of the PE teachers we once had grace these pages! Many comments seem to come from people in school after 1970 nowadays here.


Alan, did your PE lesson take place in the (public?) park and was that shirtless?