Clitheroe Royal Grammar School

Bradley, I'm surprised topless cross country is a thing even nowadays? Why did your school do this and what type of school was this? We're people fine with this policy?

Hi Bradley, glad that you feel the same as I do about some of these bizarre practices!
Out of interest how recently were you at school - and what were the reasons given for you to do cross country topless? I left just over 20 years ago and we were never given any kind of explanation...

Jordan, I agree with your point that nude swimming is a horrible idea. I can't even comprehend that this was ever a rule. As someone who left school very recently, something like that would be inconceivable.

I agree that nude showering isn't a problem, it wasn't a problem for me since we all faced the wall when showering and there was the unwritten rule of not looking at each other when in that situation. It makes sense to shower with nothing on; I don't think I know anyone who showers at home with trunks on, so why should the same not apply to schools? It's important to clean everything after going in the pool for hygiene reasons.

I can't imagine how doing a swimming lesson naked would be hygienic. Would be pretty disgusting and humiliating to say the least.

Our cross country lessons were done topless, which was odd since I don't know any other school that did this. The reasons for doing so were questionable to say the least.

Just catching up on the recent posts here and I totally agree with Willy's view - logical and sensible for boys to take nude showers. But nude swimming? To me it seems incredible this form of humiliation was ever commonplace in schools. I just cannot understand why boys would be expected to strip naked for a class, especially with girls looking on.
I'm relieved to say I never experienced nude swimming at school - but topless cross country was another matter. I'm not sure why Rob thinks it promotes discipline and self confidence among boys if they are forced to run around wet, muddy fields in only a pair of shorts. Personally it made me feel resentful and humiliated and, as Willy says, it was totally unnecessary for us to be topless. I felt at the time and still do now that sadistic games teachers just saw it as a means to make us boys feel small.

Rob, although I agree with you on the necessity of nude showers after exercise and swimming, I think that both nude swimming and topless cross country runs were unnecessary and harsh.
Proof of this is that teachers and coaches always wore trunks during these swimming lessons and also wore protective tops during these runs when they accampanied the boys, especially in winter.

Regarding nude swimming it was especially humiliating for the boys when there were other teachers and school staff present, including females. Some mention that they even had to be nude for swimming galas in front of parents and guests and also female teachers.

Stephen,you were at an all boys school as I was and a great many others were.We soon got used to being naked in the open showers without embarrassment.It was indeed very odd that you never showered after PE or swimming because it is essential that you wash away the sweat and chlorine from your body every time.If you had showered you would not have found it embarrassing swimming without trunks.
PE in just shorts, and nothing else in the gym and outside,including cross country,together with nude swimming promotes discipline and helps boys build self confidence for the future.

Stephen, Plainly you did not like swimming without trunks, and yet there is much historical evidence that nude swimming for boys in and out of school was commonplace until, say, the 1920s. The reason is obvious: men went swimming long before trunks were invented. The practice lived on in non-State schools, and in the US nude swimming at the YMCA and in many high schools was the norm until the 1970s. It's very practical because you don't have to bother with wet trunks.

We got used to single sex nudity because of the showers at school. If your school did not have them, that is very odd.

Stephen, I'm not exactly convinced. I've know of people who didn't feel they were abused, who were used to the idea and who didn't feel uncomfortable with swimming without trunks. I feel like you're an exception to the rule. At the end of the day, the government shouldn't be regulating what schools decide. If a PE department thinks swimming with trunks is the way to go, so be it. If not, fine as well.

Gerald, it was an abuse of power because there is no real reason why swimming should be done without trunks. It is impractical since we could all afford trunks. As well as this, it is just not appropriate for a teacher to be able to decide that we should do swimming lessons like fhis. It was just uncomfortable, embarrassing at times and unnecessary

Stephen, why do you consider it an abuse of power when it is not or wasn't against the law at the time? Nude swimming is something that was normal in many schools, not exactly an abuse of power.

Steve, Agree with all that. Worst was if you were the boy the master chose to demonstrate the handstand as you would have the class gathered round to watch, as in the Burnley Grammar photo, although we were always at ground level, hands on mat. This meant that with baggy shorts what was under them was really on display. Since you could not make a fuss you quickly learned composure, and as you say we were all in the showers afterwards so it hardly mattered.

We got so used to never wearing pants for gym or games that in no time we stopped thinking about it. The boys in the Burnley photo on the beam and ropes with their legs up are obviously not bothered.

Just saw Aly's post and I have to agree. I was at a private boys' school in the early eighties and we had to do all our swimming lessons without trunks. Thankfully policy soon ended. No child should have to be subjected to that. It is impractical and an abuse of power by schools. Weirdly enough, we never had showers after PE or swimming.

However, I disagree that doing PE bare chested is in any way an abuse.

Late comment on Willy's posting of 10 March. Our boys only school had corporal punishment (the tawse or belt on the hands) whereas the equivalent girl's school did not.
It was not used a lot in the academic classes, but PE was a different matter, where it was in regular or even frequent use. It was hard, but I believe it really improved the standard of fitness and discipline.

I agree at first holding up another lads legs whilst doing handstands wearing baggy shorts was a bit daunting but after a while you came to realise you just had to get on with it. After all working in pairs you would both be doing the handstand at some time and you would not be seeing anything that you would not see in the changing rooms or showers after the lesson.

William, I absolutely agree with your first paragraph, and while I was not shy about my body hated doing handstands and having to hold another boy's legs. I also agree with your comments about the British being inhibited compared to other European countries.I discovered the reality of this on a holiday in Austria with my wife some years ago in the hotel sauna which was mixed.It felt very natural and there seemed nothing wrong with being nude in mixed company.A few years later we were in Southern Austria and I went to a sauna in a public leisure centre where I discovered that there were families with teenage children, including brothers and sisters and their friends all enjoying the harmless freedom of being naked together.I thought at the time that if only we could be this relaxed about ourselves in Britain.

Lay, I think a lot of what you'd consider abuse is perfectly accepted in some schools even today. you seem to suggest that not wearing a shirt to go swimming is abuse? Unfortunately, it is not practical to swim with a shirt on. If someone doesn't feel comfortable without a shirt on, then they really need to work on their confidence.

At school (I left just a few years ago), I really liked swimming but was always slightly embarrassed of having to wear just swim trunks/briefs. Did I request to wear a shirt? No, that's ridiculous. People need to work on their fears. I remember being asked to represent my school team at a county-wide gala. It was a huge event and the event I was to take part in was the final one of the day, five hours after we came. We changed at our own school and took the bus wearing swim briefs since there were not enough rooms for everyone to change in, or so we were told. now you might consider that abuse, but it's not. It builds confidence and encourages people to take care of their bodies. What I'm saying is we need to work on our insecurities and we need to stop being shy. Look at the Germans, the Norwegians and their attitudes

Aly, Don't you think it is sometimes good for children to do things they find a bit uncomfortable? Does it not help them to develop and find out what they can cope with? I did find gym challenging at school. As a shy 11-year old I would have avoided nude showers and I would not have done handstands wearing nothing under my baggy white shorts with another boy holding my legs. But I had no choice and quickly got used to it. I did not think being made to do this was unfair because we were all treated the same. It helped to make me more relaxed and confident about my skinny body.

As it is the British are more inhibited about their bodies than people in Europe. Anyone who spends time on the continent quickly discovers the truth of that - whether on a Spanish beach, in a German sauna or an Icelandic swimming pool (where everyone has to have a supervised soapy shower while naked - that is how they keep their chlorine levels low).

Religious considerations apart, it is sad indeed if men and boys are so inhibited about their bodies that they feel uncomfortable swimming bare-chested. Can this sensitivity about bodies possibly be healthy? In a German sauna no-one pays any attention to the fact that everyone is naked because it is the norm. People don't snigger, stare or misbehave. This seems to me to be a healthier attitude.

Yes it's fine but they shouldn't be forced to swim without a shirt. There are wetsuits available for people who don't want to swim without covering their upper body. Likewise, no one should be forced to do PE without a shirt. Some children do not feel comfortable showing that much skin, others might prefer not to for religious reasons. Many of the Muslim boys at my son's school prefer not to.

A bit beyond what we were expected to do in school - but they are stripped to the waist!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svfI_79SiAU

Aly - do you think it acceptable for a boy to be expected to swim in shorts but no shirt but not do p.e. dressed the same?

At my boys grammar school in the 60s we did all indoor p.e. without shirts and barefoot and some outdoor activities the same including cross country. It was comfortable, practical and most certainly not abusive.

I think there are some people who like to think being made to do something they don't really like is abuse - it isn't! The sooner children learn that they can't always do exactly what they want the easier they will find things later in life.

I often think that that times have changed so much & not always for the better. Obviously there must be child protection but i never thought I was being abused having to do pe in minimal clothing with communal showers afterwards. Most of the lads in my school were either in Scouts or cadets and going to camp and changing together was just a continuation of changing at school and we were not bothered if a leader was present. Nowadays I am given to understand that teachers or adult leaders cannot put on a plaster or sun cream in case of abuse. Where do we end?

I agree with you it would be classed as abusive today, but Society was very different then!
Back then it was completely normal!
Prince Charles attended Gordonstoun where the character-forming cold shower and shirtless year round early-morning run was part of the rite of passage at the School!

About whether or not something is abuse, consider this: I remember being made to swim a mile (many lengths of a large school swimming pool), fully clothed, after the end of the school day. There was just me, and a teacher who watched to see that I completed the business. Was this a case of unusual and abusive punishment? No. It was a required test to see that I was fit to survive a serious accident on a sailing course I was about to start.

'Abuse' isn't so much about the act, as the intent. This is why a judge distinguishes between premeditated murder and unintentional manslaughter, for example. Real abuse seems to have been more common than previously known, or admitted, but that just makes it all the more important that we learn the difference. I didn't see discipline as abuse, it was more likely to prevent abuse (in the form of bullying between pupils), but power corrupts, so discipline that aimed to give power and responsibility to pupils at school was obviously better than that which took it away. Most kids would know the difference, animal instinct takes care of that, but the tragedy is that some could not get out from under. This for many is a painful and complex matter, very different from a superficial assessment of things like the obvious discomfort of being cold while exercising in winter in minimal clothing.

I discovered that running shirtless on a cross country winter run was good for me, extremely so. It let me become tougher rather than weakening me. It was very different from being made to stand in goal for a cold wet hour when ten years younger by the other kids who ran around in a mindless pack after a ball in an unsupervised game of 'football' in which neither 'team' wanted to pick me, the outsider. That wretched game was 'played' with no rules or understanding of the game, and I hate football to this day. If discipline spares a kid from that kind of cold helpless misery, bring it on.

I completely agree with Graham, William & Pete ... it was as things were ... no question of abuse.

As William says: Sometimes life was uncomfortable but we learned discipline and to get on with life without making a fuss.

Aly, I did p.e. stripped to the waist - nothing disgusting about that, certainly not abuse and if it some sort of child protection issues that mean few boys can enjoy such a sensible approach then things have gone too far. Boys are not being "protected" by wearing shirts for p.e.

Aly, At my boys only grammar school we were always stripped to the waist for gym, never wore anything under our shorts, had corporal punishment, nude showers and endured all weathers. Sometimes life was uncomfortable but we learned discipline and to get on with life without making a fuss. Emphatically, we were not abused.

To Aly,

PE stripped to the waist and corporal punishment was just accepted as the way it was then. Swimming without trunks wasn't the practice in my school but if it had been, it would have had to be done.

Nick, thank you for your response.Your first point was exactly what I was trying to say; if I had been the only boy stripped to the waist I would have felt the same as you. But attitudes were different when I was a child and boys would take their tops off at home and play outside in the summer. So we didn't have a problem stripping off for pe; in fact it would have felt uncomfortable if we had worn tops as we got very sweaty and looked forward to a good shower afterwards. So yes, if I had been in charge of your PE class I would have made you all wear just shorts and plimsolls! I am glad that your unfortunate experiences in PE did not deter you from enjoying your leisure time in later life.

Absolutely disgusting treatment from what I've read here. No child should be told to take off their shirt in a PE lesson, no child should be made to swim without shorts on, no child should be hit or abused in any way by teachers. Thankfully we have child protection laws in this country

Rob, thanks for your comment - it's interesting to hear your description of how it was back then. You clearly feel it was ultimately to your benefit having to do PE, cross country etc topless. And presumably if you'd been in charge of my PE class you'd also have made me take my vest off!
Just a couple of things I'd point out... Obviously if you were all used to doing PE stripped to the waist every time then you wouldn't have found it humiliating. It was different for me, I wasn't used to it and being the only boy out of 25 or so who was told to do the lesson topless was clearly intended to make me feel uncomfortable.
Also, you assumed that I'd be reluctant to take my top off later in life... I can assure you that I'm perfectly happy to be in just shorts at the beach or the pool!