Burnley Grammar School

You settle arguments using your brain and your tongue, not your fists.

To use boxing with the approval of teaching staff as a means to settle scores between schoolboys seems unorthodox. Did it work in this case?

With regard to Charles' comment on the 25th April, I can say that boxing was gradually being phased out at my school, by the time I arrived in the early 1960s.

However, even years later, boxing was still very occasionally, used as a 'safer' means to settle arguments between boys, and these lunchtime bouts attracted enthusiastic audiences.

Did anyone who had a last period PE lesson at school get allowed to just leave school and walk home in their PE kit sometimes? Lads at our school could do that in the summer term if we wanted and had the last period PE. When I was 15 in 1979 it was great walking out the gates going home like that, some would stick the PE tops around the waist and bravely go after a few wolf whistles from groups of girls on purpose. We had a lad I remember at taht age who had managed to grow about three dark hairs on the middle of his chest and thought it made him God's gift to girls. The PE teacher that let us leave school in our kits and do that was thought of as rather a cool dude at the time. The others made us shower and change back into blazers which was a drag as we'd be taking it all back off within a few minutes again anyway. My mate had a house right beside the school gates and this was a real pain to him.

A Yorkshiredad, my suggestion for you would be to ask them about it, involve them in your decision making. Do you want your class to have the same appearance? If so then clearly you are going to have to decide one way or the other. Put it to a vote of hands for that occasion if it takes place and you do some type of presentation. If it's not important everyone has the same appearance then allow those who wish to remain in their summer PE kit, without top, to do so, and those who wish to wear something to do that.

If you do have a summer PE kit at school that implies just shorts wearing, no top, and then feel the need to wear tops for a presentation does that not make it appear there is something wrong with doing PE like that in the first place though?

In my case if I was to do a theoretical PE display of some sort with a family audience I would allow a free choice on what to wear because quite simply put at our school we mix it up a lot, although the bare chest part of PE is the minority time, just now and again. Mostly we have tops, often forgotten it seems when I come on here and write. But if our school had a permanent bare chested PE uniform I would see it as somehwat strange to suddenly begin dressing up for any gym work we might display and would continue as we do normally at school in that case.

Yorkshiredad, you wrote about an upcoming parent open day. Is this subject something you would feel able to openly bring up yourself to any parent or would you wait for a comment first? I certainly don't think you should be overly concerned about shirtless PE. But if you are, take a leaf out of my recent book and take a quick vote on it with the boys and see what happens. A few slips of paper and a shoe box was all it took with our lot to find out most, three quarters of boys were fine with being asked to do so, and the other quarter accepted the result.

If it had been the other way around then yes we would have reconsidered and likely stopped come September. That would have been my decision.

Yorkshiredad, going back to the parents, in ten years I have not had one single parent comment to me or raise an issue on occasional bare chests in PE lessons taking place. That's a lot of sons passing through the classes in that time and a lot of parents. Just two seprate parents have ever questioned me regards school showering expectations at open nights in ten years, and neither actually objected outright to that either, just wanted reassurances on the requirement policy of them at school. One of these parents simply wanted to know about privacy concerns and mobile phones for example in such an area - these are banned outright.

Now Alan, you've said many things and I know I am unlikely to win you over. But you might like to know about a class I took on Friday morning last week. One of our circuit training fitness hours with the Year 8's. A morning often taken bare chests each time we do it. Well I took a different approach and began with saying, 'Shirts off as usual if you want, or if not you can decide'. I noticed most boys carried on the same in a bare chest while changing and those others who hesitated followed suit and the whole class without one exception came to PE as usual, all bare chests when given an option to do otherwise. I'm prepared to admit there was probably peer pressure but the choice was given in that case. An interesting quiet little experiment and they didn't even know why I did it and it gave me an interesting answer. Another class might give another answer. I also think that because these boys have all been doing PE with each other for a while now and from time to time done it like this then most would not have seen the point in changing tack now.

I'd also like to just remind the forum that 4 in 5 PE classes are not involving any bare chest element at any point, other than brief required showering at the end.

A little bit of amusement for those who faced the shirts versus skins pick.

Anyone remember reactions like these?

Diary Of A Wimpy Kid - Shirts vs Skins.

https://youtu.be/xMte16v_71I?feature=shared

Comment by: Neil on 28th April 2024 at 11:37

"What some of these gentleman like Jack are saying is not so much about what individual schools are doing in the current year we are in but more about a general attitude to the style of PE once commonplace, that's all isn't it."

Well, lets' be charitable, Neil. Perhaps Jack and the man who likes "compulsion", (Clive) are just of that mindset that thinks because I had to do it, they so-and-so should as well. I still think that is a mean spirited notion, especially as so many people on this board as adults have made it clear they felt awkward at school because of that ludicrous shirtless rule, but I think it ill-becomes older gents obsessing about lads running round with no tops on. However, Jack did express his delight when he heard that one current school is still submitting their pupils to this unnecessary practice, so perhaps you are a little too charitable. The "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" attitude of ex Grammar school types has always irritated me.


A Yorkshire Dad: "Aesthetic" reasons?. Crisp white shirts look more pleasing to the eye. There are times you begin to wonder if the 21st century has even started in the dusty world of PE teachers and sports coaches.

Thank you for your post Stella it was very interesting, it would be great to hear from more mums on this site. My own school will be having a parent's open day in a couple of months and I expect some sort of PE display in the hall will be requested. Now that the boys are wearing just their shorts only summer term kit the question would be whether to use that kit or return to wearing the polo t-shirts worn for most of the year. I think you might have decided the issue for me.

Alan, in reply to Stella you made the comparison to army practice but I think it would be more appropriate here to consider what boys gymnastics clubs sometime choose to do at displays. A quick search of Youtube confirmed the practice of performing bare chested. A video from Heathrow gymnastics club just 5 years old.

https://youtu.be/H19Dxz6bHO4?si=O5LYlm-ipsoXIo_V

The club has posted other videos where unitards or costumes are worn by the boys so I am sure the choice of bare chests was done for aesthetic reasons by the coach. Dont you agree this is a more appropriate comparison to Stella's experience Alan rather than the army.

What some of these gentleman like Jack are saying is not so much about what individual schools are doing in the current year we are in but more about a general attitude to the style of PE once commonplace, that's all isn't it.

Comment by: Clive on 27th April 2024 at 22:46


"Well said Jack. A few more pro-bare chest physical education comments are welcome to hear, and compulsion is always the best way to deliver such outcomes."


Another candidate for a one way ticket to China or North Korea - do as you are told - or else!. They just love your sort.

A sickening comment to make in 2024

Clive - another grammar school boy perhaps?

There are some very strange men around......

Comment by: Jack on 27th April 2024 at 16:40


"Comment by: Stuart on 27th April 2024 at 07:34
A boys grammar school near me still do cross country in the summer stripped to the waist (vests in winter). All the boys are bare chested, so it must be compulsory for ever class/run.



"........Excellent to hear this..........."

.........A normal activity being seen as exceptional now. From 1959-61 my grammar school put the boys out on the cross country in our bare chests all year round without a personal say on if we wished to cover or not. We obeyed the masters instructions to the letter and were only twelve, thirteen or fourteen years old........ It might seem quite abnormal now to be made to run like that outside in less than favourable conditions but they were trying to turn boys like me into men who had some stamina about us. It worked for the most part. Never heard a negative peep out of anyone about it.......


Why is it "excellent" to hear this?. You are now a man in your ?70s, why should what boys wear in 2024 concern you so much,, Jack?.

If I may say so, grammar school boys, always thought they were "better" than state schoolboys, and of course nobody complained, because as you have already told us "We obeyed the masters instructions to the letter ". That is why so many joined the Civil Service. They love obeying orders, even into middle age and beyond.

"Just obeying orders" is still the watchword in countries which do not welcome or value democracy. Better to think for yourself. I am very glad I wasn't grammar school yes-man fodder.

As regards "turning boys into men" - firefighters and policemen don't find it necessary to conduct their work without shirts on. Are they "boys" or "men"?

Well said Jack. A few more pro-bare chest physical education comments are welcome to hear, and compulsion is always the best way to deliver such outcomes. You shouldn't be scared of your own body!

Wearing a vest is almost the same as being shirtless. I'm not sure I can work your logic out there on that one Dave.

My comprehensive school gym kit was vests which were not worn much of the time. I think there is a clear difference. I've never heard of a single boy and no men have come on here bemoaning the fact that they were made to wear vests for gym class at school.

"Comment by: Mark on 27th April 2024 at 15:24
Dave you said - 'Being in a vest is almost shirtless. It is almost the same.'

Disagree with you here. Massive dfference. I like wearing a decent looking smart casual vest over summer because I'm slim to average size and going about like that on the best days is comfortable for me, but there is no way I would do the same things I do wearing a vest, such as going around shops etc if I was completely shirtless and I wouldn't wish to do so, I would feel different and maybe judged more. I save that for the garden mostly."

I meant wearing a vest or being shirtless is almost the same for PE and intensive exercise. Going to a store or to other places in every day life is a very different thing. What is the purpose of vests for PE? Well they are far better than T-shirt for exrercices and much better choice by a PE teacher but what is the function for any shirt for very intensive exersice for PE?

Comment by: Stuart on 27th April 2024 at 07:34
A boys grammar school near me still do cross country in the summer stripped to the waist (vests in winter). All the boys are bare chested, so it must be compulsory for ever class/run.



Excellent to hear this.

A normal activity being seen as exceptional now. From 1959-61 my grammar school put the boys out on the cross country in our bare chests all year round without a personal say on if we wished to cover or not. We obeyed the masters instructions to the letter and were only twelve, thirteen or fourteen years old. We were saved from the coldest days and only did the milder ones but it was still damned fresh as we ran sometimes. Boys bodies in those days did not contain much excess fat content, we were all quite thin really with marathon runner type shapes before filling out. It might seem quite abnormal now to be made to run like that outside in less than favourable conditions but they were trying to turn boys like me into men who had some stamina about us. It worked for the most part. Never heard a negative peep out of anyone about it. Inside the school gymnasium it was the regular standard to always go bare chests too at all times while I was at grammar school.

Dave you said - 'Being in a vest is almost shirtless. It is almost the same.'

Disagree with you here. Massive dfference. I like wearing a decent looking smart casual vest over summer because I'm slim to average size and going about like that on the best days is comfortable for me, but there is no way I would do the same things I do wearing a vest, such as going around shops etc if I was completely shirtless and I wouldn't wish to do so, I would feel different and maybe judged more. I save that for the garden mostly.

Wes - 23/04 2247

I went to school in the late 60's/early 70's - and when we changed for PE/cross country we always had to line up in kit waiting for permission to enter the gym or start the run. Again in full view of the rest of the school.

Our PE kit was only white shorts (no shirts, bare feet), and our cross country kit was white shorts, plimsolls (no shirts/vests - even in winter).

I don't think anyone actually hated this all, anyway it was "normal" for the whole school and we had no choice.

Ross - 25/04 1747

A boys grammar school near me still do cross country in the summer stripped to the waist (vests in winter). All the boys are bare chested, so it must be compulsory for ever class/run

Comment by: Gavin on 26th April 2024 at 22:46

"Stella.

Gosh if my gym teacher had made me perform for anyone doing some PE I'd have been very reticent about it no matter what I was wearing but if he whipped our normal PE kit off our backs and told us to get out there for all the old folks and prance around stripped to the waist I think I'd have feigned sickness and run to the loo and locked the door. Actually I don't think I would have needed to feign sickness, my tummy would be on a churn for real......."

You later accuse yourself of sounding "wet", Gavin, but you are not - I think you are expressing what MOST ordinary lads would have felt. Nor do I think Stella sounds like an over-protective mother. Apart from teachers who teach practical subjects - I.T and the like, so many PE teachers want to take us back to the 40s - the 1840s - when their word was law and everybody just without question obeyed their whims and fancies. Teachers, if they so wish, can live in the world as it was - not as it is. The world of Michael Redgrave in The Browning Version of 70 or more years ago.


Comment by: James on 25th April 2024 at 19:44


"Charles, Thanks for your interest. I absolutely agree with your point about vests, far better off bare chested.......



One question, Jim: WHY??


You go on to say: "......"My dad also had me fight in "private" fights, probably illegal, but for cash which was very short when my elder sisters and I were growing up. These fights were arranged at different sites, farms or somewhere quiet and out of the way of the authorities. I've no recollection of how the bouts were agreed, dad would announce on a Sunday morning I'd be fighting whoever in a month......"

There is no doubt that was - and remains - illegal, and frankly borders on child abuse. Sorry to be so blunt, but you could have suffered brain injuries, or even death. My family were not exactly rolling in it, but I would never have been cajoled or forced into doing something risky, or against my will.

I entirely agree with Giles and others on here who think that it was entirely inappropriate for PE teachers to force boxing on to young kids (or rugby come to that, but that is a discussion for another day) - two sports which carry the highest risk of really serious, permanent injury.

I am not going at you here, but I get really fed up keep reading bare chested fanatics thinking that we should all feel the same way. I am forever repeating, and will again, that if you want to take part so (un)attired that is fine and you should be free to do so, but for those boys and men who find it uncomfortable, then their wishes should be taken into account, and respected. It is sad youngish teachers like Nathan on here still demand it, especially as he claims to put the mental welfare of his pupils so highly. He doesn't, he pays lip service to the concept. A bit of PR for the teaching profession. The truth is a great many schools (the majority of state schools?) these days do not enforce bare chested PE on boys. That he chooses to do so is deplorable, especially as he now knows that a minority of his lads are not happy with it.

It has been commented that wearing a vest is better than being shirtless for PE. What is the real difference? Being in a vest is almost shirtless. It is almost the same.

Stella.

Gosh if my gym teacher had made me perform for anyone doing some PE I'd have been very reticent about it no matter what I was wearing but if he whipped our normal PE kit off our backs and told us to get out there for all the old folks and prance around stripped to the waist I think I'd have feigned sickness and run to the loo and locked the door. Actually I don't think I would have needed to feign sickness, my tummy would be on a churn for real. I couldn't care less if other boys wanted to do that shirtless though, good on them, but it wouldn't have been for me at all and one thing teacher taking his 'private' gym lesson like that but I kind of agree with you on the vests there, not really the thing to make boys perform shirtless for parents if they are not into that.

That probably makes me sound a bit wet I know, but that's my honest personal opinion speaking for myself. I was at school in the eighties and nineties.

Comment by: Ray on 26th April 2024 at 20:33

On that girls and hell comment from Chris A - 'So my parents wrote a letter asking if I could wear a tee shirt or a vest for PE and my trainers and when I handed it to my PE teacher he just laughed at me and screwed it up and told me not to waste his time. We showered naked too but I knew that was impossible to get out of so didn't even try to get out of that. We shared with girls once a week and that was hell.'




I don't think Chris actually meant he was made to share the showers with girls, just the PE lesson. I think everyone has a different pain/hell threshold don't they. It could have been something significant or it could have been next to nothing but if it plays on the mind then that's enough I suppose.

Don't most boys in their teens get a bit coy if shirtless in front of a girl or girls, unless on a beach maybe. I think the actual place you are doing so counts for a lot too.

Chris A, you said "We shared with girls once a week and that was hell."

Why? Did the girls do anything that made it hell?

Quoting Stella on 24th April.

"Was I just being a silly over protective mother here do you think?"


I think so Stella. It sounded quite like you were the embarrassed one there to me a bit, you got caught unawares by your son and his class coming into the hall in their shirtless state when you didn't expect that, yet you did also seem to say your son was not obviously concerned by this. Also you mentioned their faces but that could also just be concentrating hard more than anything else. I had fear about doing all this kind of thing at school but it went almost immediatley I actually did shirtless (in PE) and naked stuff (showers) in the changing room, although I never had to do any PE stuff in front of a bunch of our parents like that.

Just a note on the boxing that's been mentioned. No such thing ever took place at my school and I must concur with others and say that I consider that a specialist activity suited to a very small minority and not something that should be forced upon unwilling participants. Often boxing is used to channel the energies of those boys who fall off the rails a bit to direct themselves away from trouble into something a bit more constructive. Mostly regular lads, even the sporting ones have no interest in it. School should not be a place to encourage boys to hit each other, even with boxing gloves on, and I see no learning to defend yourself argument about it either.

I don't think boxing was ever a feature of PE in normal state comprehensive schools was it, or would have been allowed to take place?

I was always up for most things but boxing, nope would not have liked a teacher telling me to start punching my mates about in the school gym. Some of the rougher lads saved that for the school lunch hour or just outside the school gates!

The writer and actor John Cleese taught at a preparatory school for two years at the end of the 1950s. He recalled that the headmaster under whom he worked ended boxing, to the relief of all, because he was moved by boys objecting to punching their friends.

I am dead set against boxing taking place in schools PE ever since I was at a grammar school in the late 1960's where I did boxing on perhaps three occasions very much not wishing to start taking lumps out of others or getting punched myself. The first time we did it we all paired up across the gym and were encouraged to start jabbing with each other. It was quite tame on that occasion but the next couple of times got a lot more serious and some real knocking about took place and I don't seem to remember there being any head guards protecting us. Because of this they stopped doing it while I was there in my final year in 1970 when someone was sent into a seizure and fitted on the floor during PE when boxing was taking place in the gym.

If you really want to box then make use of a private gym to do so, don't attempt to make all boys do this.

Charles, Thanks for your interest. I absolutely agree with your point about vests, far better off bare cheated.
I started to learn when I was 8 (mum wanted me to cope with bullies) but didn't fight until I was 9. I wasn't anything special but gave things a go. Boxing was part of PE and it mandatory for everyone who didn't wear glasses until you turned 10 then you could do rugby instead. At school we had inter house competitions reffed only by PE teachers. One of the female PE teachers was a fully qualified first aider and she knew her stuff. Bouts were drawn by names from a hat by those taking part and we were very much barechested in the ring
These were held in the gym and your full year group, boys and girls, watching. We also competed against local schools which had it's moments.
My dad also had me fight in "private" fights, probably illegal, but for cash which was very short when my elder sisters and I were growing up. These fights were arranged at different sites, farms or somewhere quiet and out of the way of the authorities. I've no recollection of how the bouts were agreed, dad would announce on a Sunday morning I'd be fighting whoever in a month.
The afternoon or evening would usually feature 4 bouts and most of the time you were against someone your own age or fairly close to it where possible. For lads aged 9-12 it was 3 70 second rounds, From 13 it increased to 2 mins per round but the length of the fight could be 4-6 rounds depending on what had been agreed beforehand but it was all unregulated. I also recall grudge matches with lads actually fighting for a girls attention/affection Whether or not it ever worked out or was a fleeting romance I haven't a clue. Hope this gives an idea.

In the few weeks since I followed up on Bill's observations of seeing a group of shirtless runners near a school in Dunstable a few months ago I have been doing some wider research as a journalist for an article I may write in the near future into the increase in this running style lately, aka the 'bareskin running craze'.

As part of this research I might as well stick a comment on here because I'm interested to know just how prevalent this really was in the past within schools or whether it was nothing more than isolated instances of the practice, such as taking the school cross country out like this, and whether these were voluntary arrangements or not where they took place.

I'm also quite interested to know if anyone has any other current examples such as Bill identified and I was able to follow up and confirm back in February, and thanks again to you Bill for your repsonse to me on that.

I'm also trying to determine if the whole shirtless male scenario might be under threat and if we are retreating to a situation where it will no longer become as acceptable as it once was, or whether this is not really the case at all, and finally why such a thing appears to be so contentious nowadays, especially if it takes place within a school for a PE lesson.

I'd be keen to hear from those of all views but am espcially interested in those on the extremes, those who found being shirtless a problem and those who found it a non issue completely.


I also have a planned and pending article on health and education which I might merge in with this about the demise of school showers and would welcome thoughts about this too if anyone would like to share anything from any point in time they went to school.


I am 37, from Luton and was very bare chest averse at school myself.

Comment by: Neil on 25th April 2024 at 11:27


"Why do you always have to take a pop at what was obviously Nathan even though you never mentioned him by name? He couldn't sound more reasonable to me if he tried. I think even you would probably enjoy his PE lessons if you found yourself in one, whether you were wearing a shirt or not........."

What makes you think that, Neil !?

Every teacher I ever knew, however superficially "nice" they seemed, was invariably a control freak. I certainly wouldn't have enjoyed his shirtless lessons.

I suspect, anyway, that his vote was a pointless gesture. I wonder if he would really have scrapped the shirtless nonsense if the poll had gone the other way?. I doubt it, but only he can tell you that.

James.

I always wanted to box as a youngster although my mum was always dead against it. I was hugely looking forward to moving to secondary school where I knew from the older boy next door, that it was part of the curriculum (this was the early 60’s) and there would be no question of my taking part – only boys wearing spectacles were exempt if I remember correctly – only to find that it had been abolished the year before I started. I was furious! And have wondered ever since what exactly it would have been like to take part and how I would have coped, far from being a really fit or sporty lad.

Where did you box – at school? I assume it wasn’t at an amateur boxing club as I believe they all had to be affiliated to the ABA, which required (completely unnecessarily in my opinion) vests to be worn.

I’d love to know all the details about how opponents were decided, the length and number of rounds, who and how bouts were refereed, etc, etc – all you can recall in as much detail as possible, please!

James,
In my final year at secondary, last lesson of the week was timetabled as Music/Boxing. I always opted for the easy option of sitting in the hall with a book listening to Classical music, and never once showed my face at Boxing, but as vests were always mandatory for PE, it was inevitably the same for Boxing.